LoneRanger
Member
ahh 10-4
thanks for your input Bean!
thanks for your input Bean!
Silent and Failsafe Overflow System
- Thread starter BeanAnimal
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bored4long
New member
OK, I got mine set up last night and did a water test. I filled the tank and switched on the return pump. The siphon overflow worked correctly, and I dialed it back with my attached gate valve so just the tiniest trickle of water was flowing through the second overflow. I was very impressed. I shut off the return pump to see how much water goes back into the sump.
When I turned the return pump back on, the siphon would not start. No matter what I did, I couldn't get the siphon channel to work again. How high must the water be above the siphon channel before it will start? Any suggestions? Thanks.
When I turned the return pump back on, the siphon would not start. No matter what I did, I couldn't get the siphon channel to work again. How high must the water be above the siphon channel before it will start? Any suggestions? Thanks.
Hi
I think this is a stunning design/ application ( on a superb site! ) and as I am about to commission /build a 48 x 24 x 24 ( it is metric but ignore that!) reef system I would like to incorporate the principles of this design into that. A few questions if I may :-
a) The tank will be rimless of "Extra Clear" ( think Starfire ) glass in 1/2" .. consequently I'd like if possible to maintain the aesthetics and do this overflow externally. My physics knowledge is appalling. In order to maintain the 'Surface Skim' would it be possible to make the 'Rear glass wall' in two pieces with ( say a 1/4') gap between 22' and 1 3/4" high glass sheets whilst still maintaining structural integrity?
b) Id like to clean up the sump aesthetics and save a little space. Is it possible / advisable to link 2 of the 3 downpipes ie emergency and any other before entering the sump ( I'd like to do all 3 but assume the 'failsafe' would go out the window.
c) I've read this a few times and dont understand why it isnt possible to 1 1/2 ' bulkheads with 1 1/2" downpipe.... can someone explain ( again) to me ? Sorry ! I've always been told to use 'bigger' ball valves as well to maintain the 'throughflow'. Have I lost the plot?
Thanks .. hope I've explained myself adequately !
I think this is a stunning design/ application ( on a superb site! ) and as I am about to commission /build a 48 x 24 x 24 ( it is metric but ignore that!) reef system I would like to incorporate the principles of this design into that. A few questions if I may :-
a) The tank will be rimless of "Extra Clear" ( think Starfire ) glass in 1/2" .. consequently I'd like if possible to maintain the aesthetics and do this overflow externally. My physics knowledge is appalling. In order to maintain the 'Surface Skim' would it be possible to make the 'Rear glass wall' in two pieces with ( say a 1/4') gap between 22' and 1 3/4" high glass sheets whilst still maintaining structural integrity?
b) Id like to clean up the sump aesthetics and save a little space. Is it possible / advisable to link 2 of the 3 downpipes ie emergency and any other before entering the sump ( I'd like to do all 3 but assume the 'failsafe' would go out the window.
c) I've read this a few times and dont understand why it isnt possible to 1 1/2 ' bulkheads with 1 1/2" downpipe.... can someone explain ( again) to me ? Sorry ! I've always been told to use 'bigger' ball valves as well to maintain the 'throughflow'. Have I lost the plot?
Thanks .. hope I've explained myself adequately !
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
It all depends on how you have it setup. You can do a few things to make it start easier. 1) drill a few holes in the siphon standpipe just above the waterline in the sump, or just ensure that the siphon standpipe ends just below the water level (not 4" or 5"). 2) Shorten the bottom of the siphon intakes elbow so that there is not as much of an airgap.
Have you let the setup run until the water flows into the emergency overflow? Did the siphon STILL not kick in? The water has to get high enough to spill over into the siphon standpipe, at the same time it will also spill over into the open channel standpipe.
Some poeple have prefered to place the open channel standpipe bulkhead or intake slightly higher than the siphon. This will certainly facilitate the siphon starting, but is not a requirement.
Can you repost the details of your setup with bulkhead and standpipe sizes, photos of the intakes?
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
On a "rimless" tank, I would simple have the back glass made shorter than the rest of the tank and then build the overflow box onto the back of the tank. The overflow box will actually stiffen the rear panel significantly.
I would not advise it. Each standpipe acts as its own system and operates slightly differently. In theory you could link the open channel and emergency drains into a common larger pipe, but I have not tested the setup that way and therefore can not comment on exactly how it would behave in different failure moded.
You can certainly use larger bulkheads. I just used what I had. Use the largest pipe you can accomodate for the open channel standpipe and tee. The larger the pipe, the more laminar the flow and the less chance of the air causing gurgling.
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Thanks very much for the reply BeanAnimal, I love the design, so much better than anything I've seen, used or read about before :-
Back Glass - Thanks. Delighted that the structural rigidity should be the same. Ill ponder the idea of putting an additional piece above for aesthetics - may hide the 'columns, crittur guard and return(s) as well.
Standpipes Yes .. looks like 3 then ! I had thought that any blockage (however unlikely) after the join of 2 would negate the effect of the 'emergency' pipe. I assume that as a consequence the standpipes can be drilled through the bottom of the overflow box with the appropriate internals redesigned. Would you agree? How should I calculate depth and width of the overflow box given a c. 5x turnover rate ... can anyone suggest the tradeoffs ? Id prefer deeper and narrower.
Bulkheads Phew I thought Id forgotten everything ! Thanks !
Back Glass - Thanks. Delighted that the structural rigidity should be the same. Ill ponder the idea of putting an additional piece above for aesthetics - may hide the 'columns, crittur guard and return(s) as well.
Standpipes Yes .. looks like 3 then ! I had thought that any blockage (however unlikely) after the join of 2 would negate the effect of the 'emergency' pipe. I assume that as a consequence the standpipes can be drilled through the bottom of the overflow box with the appropriate internals redesigned. Would you agree? How should I calculate depth and width of the overflow box given a c. 5x turnover rate ... can anyone suggest the tradeoffs ? Id prefer deeper and narrower.
Bulkheads Phew I thought Id forgotten everything ! Thanks !
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Yes, you can plumb them through the bottom of the overflow box.
As for the size of the box, within reason, the smaller the volume, the better. You don't want surface skum building up there, you want the nutrient rich water taken right to the sump. That said, it should be big enough to work in with your hands. Removing critters, macro, and other stuff should not be a hassle.
As for the size of the box, within reason, the smaller the volume, the better. You don't want surface skum building up there, you want the nutrient rich water taken right to the sump. That said, it should be big enough to work in with your hands. Removing critters, macro, and other stuff should not be a hassle.
robertifly
Premium Member
Someone in this thread added P-Traps to the drain pipes which I'm thinking of doing. Question: Does really matter which way you plumb them? I'm thinking I want to put the u tube section on top and not the bottom which I think is the normal but will take more fittings and add clutter in the sump area.
robertifly
Premium Member
Someone in this thread added P-Traps to the drain pipes which I'm thinking of doing. Question: Does really matter which way you plumb them? I'm thinking I want to put the u tube section on top and not the bottom which I think is the normal but will take more fittings and add clutter in the sump area.
robertifly
Premium Member
found it page 15, Liveforphysics but his look more like S Traps, are 2 nineties needed?
http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trap1cq2.jpg
http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trap1cq2.jpg
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
The "P-traps" are for a totaly different type of setup and are not AT ALL compatible (or needed) with this overflow setup. They are simply a different means of setting up a standpipe to be quiet (as opposed to a Stockman or Durso, etc).
LiveForPhysics was simply illustrating the method that he uses to quiet his standpipes.
robertifly
Premium Member
Thank you for response BeanAnimal, you're saying "are not AT ALL compatible (or needed) with this overflow setup" so I guess I would be better of the take the traps out and replace them with unions then? I happen to have 3 extra 1.5" laying around.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Using a trap on the SIPHON standpipe will have no effect (as it is silent to begin with) and will only serve to add more friction (and therefore, less overall maximum flow).
Using a trap on the Open Channel standpipe will cause the water to backup and the standpipe will no longer function as an open channel standpipe.
Using a trap on the emergency drain is pointless, as the emergency drain should be dry 99% of the time anyway. The trap would only serve to create a potential problem.
The trap type of standpipe setup operates off of a fully different principle that does not work with this setup.
miwoodar
Likey the bikey
I water tested my new tank this weekend. Very nice design BeanAnimal. The main line of the overflow is 1" and it was almost able to keep up with an Iwaki 100 (~2000gph) all by itself. The second line was able to take the remainder without an appreciable amount of noise. I dialed the pump back to ~1000gph(?) and the setup took only ~30 minutes to tune until it was silent (most of this time was spent waiting for the water to come to rest each time I stopped and restarted the pump). The 100 will be replaced by an Iwaki 30 (~450gph) once I swap my current livestock into the new tank.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I would use 1" plumbing. You may get away with 3/4" for the siphon standpipe, but 1" would certainly be a better choice.
coralgrower
In Memoriam
Hello,
I'm working on a turn key reef system. And i feel your
overflow guru'ness skill could help!
I'm designing this tank to be ultra modern, cleaner in design
then the elos system's on the market. They are very nice looking systems no doubt, i feel they can be made better. One thing i want
to do, design a overflow that looks like a negitive edge over the whole back. So when viewing the tank from the front. it looks like the back edge of the tank is a waterfall. The tank will be a rimless cube' no brace. Would you be willing to take a stab at this overflow design?
I want it to be very silent, and very reliable, with very little chance of overflow issues. The returns will be under the tank coming up through live rock. And the wave with be a echo tech in the back wall' firing forward. The echo tech will be hidden in the back false wall so it cant be seen also. The end result will be a black false
back wall, with the whole back section in negitive edge, with zero
power heads, overflow box's, ect seen in the cube. Just a perfect
cube with a back back wall.
Let me know if you can design this part of the system? Im hoping
you can work the overflow design you use now into the plan.
Thanks
Bill
PS: this was going to land in your pm box' but its full.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I am not sure if I understand. Is there going to be a sump, or just a false wall with a "sump" area behind it?
If there is a true sump, then you would simple plumb the system exactly as described in the thread. Your overflow box will be external to the tank.
If there is no sump and instead just a hidden back compartment, then no overflow system is needed. The water will flow over the divider into the back area, be processed and returned.
Bean
If there is a true sump, then you would simple plumb the system exactly as described in the thread. Your overflow box will be external to the tank.
If there is no sump and instead just a hidden back compartment, then no overflow system is needed. The water will flow over the divider into the back area, be processed and returned.
Bean
jefathome
New member
Does running a very small amount of water through a large pipe keep it pretty silent?
I don't have a 3-pipe setup, but I do have a 2-pipe setup.
It has a 1in bulkhead and a 1 1/4in. Return pump is a Panworld 50px at 6ft (and a few bends), I get about 600gph thorugh.
My thought was to use the 1in with a gate valve to adjust the siphon to just about match the return with the remaining little bit going through the 1 1/4. The 1 1/4 would be open with maybe a small strainer on it. In an emergency thought, the 1 1/4 will be more than enough to handle the entire load should the siphon clog.
Any tips on the plumbing?
I don't need it SILENT, but close to silent would be nice.
I don't have a 3-pipe setup, but I do have a 2-pipe setup.
It has a 1in bulkhead and a 1 1/4in. Return pump is a Panworld 50px at 6ft (and a few bends), I get about 600gph thorugh.
My thought was to use the 1in with a gate valve to adjust the siphon to just about match the return with the remaining little bit going through the 1 1/4. The 1 1/4 would be open with maybe a small strainer on it. In an emergency thought, the 1 1/4 will be more than enough to handle the entire load should the siphon clog.
Any tips on the plumbing?
I don't need it SILENT, but close to silent would be nice.
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