coralgrower
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It would have a true sump under...im not grasping the concept i guess., ill go over the thread again. I dont see how i would achive
a negitive edge with it as designed.
Silent and Failsafe Overflow System
- Thread starter BeanAnimal
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It would have a true sump under...im not grasping the concept i guess., ill go over the thread again. I dont see how i would achive
a negitive edge with it as designed.
Bean,
Get idea, but reading the post I am still confused about the middle pipe (syhpon). If both ends are submerged in water, then the air inside the pipe would not allow any water to enter the pipe. How is it that once the water reached above the syhpon pipe that a syhpon occurs. How is the air trapped inside the pipe automatically removed?
Get idea, but reading the post I am still confused about the middle pipe (syhpon). If both ends are submerged in water, then the air inside the pipe would not allow any water to enter the pipe. How is it that once the water reached above the syhpon pipe that a syhpon occurs. How is the air trapped inside the pipe automatically removed?
saltee dood
New member
Supernemo
as I understand it..
it is forced through the pipe by the weight of the water, as the water level rises in the overflow, the level of water in the 90s rises to start flowing over the bend at the bulkhead and gravity takes care of the rest.
as I understand it..
it is forced through the pipe by the weight of the water, as the water level rises in the overflow, the level of water in the 90s rises to start flowing over the bend at the bulkhead and gravity takes care of the rest.
bored4long
New member
I ended up cutting 3" off the siphon pipe height, so it is 3" lower in the water. This has ensured that the siphon starts every time. Not sure if this is the best solution, as it adds a bit more water into my sump when the power is off, but the amount is not too much.
It takes a while for all the air/bubbles to work out of the siphon pipe, but when it does the siphon is silent. This usually takes a few minutes. I have it dialed to hold the water height just at the first overflow pipe. So no water is actually trickling into the pipe unless the siphon slows down. This is keeping my overflow silent. Very happy.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Exactly.
If the siphon standpipe terminates above the waterline, then you will get splashing, induced bubbles and noise.
Terminate it just below the waterline and it will still self start and self purge but be silent with ZERO air bubbles and noise.
The folks that have had problems have terminated the standpipes several inches deep into the sump.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
If you dial the setup in so that NO water is flowing in the open channel standpipe, then your "auto adjustment" bandwidth is severely diminished. A slight change in flow (barometric pressure, slime coat, etc) can easily throw the system out of balance. Part of the whole concept is the self tuning mechanism and that is part of what the open channel standpipe does.
thorsen
New member
This is probably a simple question, but I'm not sure what to do with the bottom end of the drain pipes. I understand the top portion of the pipes (or at least can copy it), but I want to know if it is ok for all three pipes on the drain portion returning to the sump to join together before entering the sump?
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
No, they can not join together before entering the sump. They will interfere with each other 
robertifly
Premium Member
Besides the interference, it would eliminate the failsafe of the emergency drain
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
It needs to be above the maximum water level in the overflow. It may[i/] work lower, but you may run into to problems or eratice operation.
thorsen
New member
Ok, bean, I have a bit of a quandry. My overflow set up is unique as you can see from the photo. The overflow fits exactly under the glass. I actually left out the emergency 3rd pipe (maybe a bad idea) because there is no way for anything any bigger than the teeth in my overflow to get in it. The overflow detaches at the bottom with unions so it can be cleaned/worked on etc. As you can see from the pictures I can't put my air valve higher than the maximum water level in my tank because the glass is in the way. It won't be hard to put it a short distance lower though.
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Bean,
Wouldn't the system fail if the water level rises above the just terminate line on the syphon tub. For instance if you did a water change a put too much water back into the system in which several inches was added (on the extreme side). Wouldn't then the just terminate line on the sump rise to several inches above and cause a problem with the middle syphon tub. So then the just terminate line cannot be more than the distance of the 90s length, i think about slight below an inch or else the pressure from the overflow would not be greater than that of the just terminate line. How can you guarantee that the just terminate line will always be just below the water level and not more or less due to evaporation or excess was addition during water change? Wouldn't the syphon fail or make water splashing sounds in the sump. The system would probably still work due to the drilled syhpon and the tub pointing up.
Hopefully I am making sense above.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
No. The system is designed with several FAIL-SAFES. That is the whole idea.
The emergency standpipe is at a higher intake level than the siphon standpipes intake. If you were to "overfill" the sump and thus submerge the siphon outflow further than normal AND it did not autostart at first.... The overflow box will fill until the EMERGENCY STANDPIPE kicks in. At the same time, the extra water level in the overflow box will more than likely kick start the siphon standpipe.
If you run your system properly, then this is never a concern, though you are still covered with the fail-safe nature of the setup.
You are not understanding the physics here. Even though there is air trapped inside the pipe, air compresses, water does not. In any reasonable scenario, water WILL begin to flow over the siphons weir and will induce a siphon. If it does NOT, then you did not properly setup the system.
You are making this out to be much more precise/finicky than it really is. Furthmore, the input side of the sump should be designed so that the water level is static (that is what baffles do). In a very LARGE sump with NO BAFFLES, the water level fluctuates very little due to even large volumes of evaporation.
In other words, the system is very self tuning and very fail-safe. It can be adapted to fit almost any scenario. If you design without regard to the operation, then of course you can get it to fial, but that holds true for ANY system.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Not a problem at all. Please don't take my direct responses the wrong way
It is just easier to keep to the facts so that other folks don't get lost in the explanations.If you need any help at all, please let me know.
Bean,
I do want to make sure i understand what your saying about the termination of the siphon line. Did you say that if the siphon line terminates too far under the surface of the water then i will experience problems? If so, how far under the water should it terminate? 1/2" 1" ...? The way melev designs the inputs to his sumps is to terminate the pipe in a bubble tower in the skimmer section, and have the water exit through the bottom after going through some LR rubble. see link below...
http://www.melevsreef.com/video/trapped_bubbles.wmv
With all three of these overflow pipes being routed to the same section of the sump, do i just terminate all of them at the same distance below the surface of the water?
I do want to make sure i understand what your saying about the termination of the siphon line. Did you say that if the siphon line terminates too far under the surface of the water then i will experience problems? If so, how far under the water should it terminate? 1/2" 1" ...? The way melev designs the inputs to his sumps is to terminate the pipe in a bubble tower in the skimmer section, and have the water exit through the bottom after going through some LR rubble. see link below...
http://www.melevsreef.com/video/trapped_bubbles.wmv
With all three of these overflow pipes being routed to the same section of the sump, do i just terminate all of them at the same distance below the surface of the water?
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
An inch or so under the surface should be fine.
If there is concern, a small hole can be drilled just above the high water mark in the sump. The open channel and emergency standpipes can be configured in the same manner. The emergency standpipe can be terminated ABOVE the water level in the sump if you have any concern of it not starting to siphon (remember it normally works as an open channel unless it becomes cempletely submerged).
Hope that helps.
If there is concern, a small hole can be drilled just above the high water mark in the sump. The open channel and emergency standpipes can be configured in the same manner. The emergency standpipe can be terminated ABOVE the water level in the sump if you have any concern of it not starting to siphon (remember it normally works as an open channel unless it becomes cempletely submerged).
Hope that helps.
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