Skimmerless: who's doing it? pros and cons

It would be easier to make a list of things that do not cause HLLE. No one knows what causes it although everyone has an opinion. One thing is for sure, it comes from captivity as wild fish don't get it.

Conclusions:

After all this, I guess I should go out on a limb and give my opinion as to the cause of this syndrome. Well, I am going to go a bit farther than that. I am going to say conclusively, once and for all, what causes this condition. Are you ready? Here goes"¦ captivity. Yes, captivity causes MHLLE. I say that jokingly, but there is also some truth in this statement. As I said previously, MHLLE has not been seen on wild fish on the reefs (Blasiola, 1990). We therefore deduce that it is obviously something we, collectively as hobbyists, are doing or not providing for our aquatic pets that causes this ailment. What exactly that is will require further scientific experimentation to definitively prove. Until then, I agree with the broad recommendations of Terry Bartelme: reduce stress, improve nutritional regime, add vitamins and HUFA supplements to the diet, enhance water quality and also try beta glucan and garlic. Those same things have almost always worked for me when I have had an occurrence of MHLLE in the fish I care for, and hopefully they will work for you.

This is the last paragraph of the article.
Patrick
 
Imperator,

RE GAC: As a longtime grandfather I think it's great you listen to your father and your own experiences as you interpret them . As an aquarist, I can only tell you that I have not seen any HHLE even on my 10 year old hippo.
\
A useful alternative or addition to GAC for organics removal might be fresh Seachem purigen if you like . It's relatively pricey. Though they calim it can be regenerated with bleach; too many experienced reefer's have had difficucty with it when regerated for my taste, I've used it fresh without any issues.
 
Imperator

PAR
I have conducted test on macro algae response to differrent spectrum with one LED manufacture. The physics of light emitting diodes are very specific in their emitted spectrum. Corals and macro algae use specific spectrum to perform different functions. The ability of corals and macro algae to adjust there use of differrent spectrum is a hot topic of study and debate. Articles by Dana Riddle can provide more insight. Unless you had an expensive PAR meter, your meter would total photons in the generally accepted range called photosyntic active radiation. It would not list specific spectrum nor is there consensus on which spectrum is required for which coral. In my preliminary test with differrent macro algae responding to differrent spectrum, some macro took months to adjust to the spectrums tested. Most of us reefkeepers want the corals to look good to us on the outside of the tank. Thus we use spectrum to highlight florescence in our display tanks. This is not always best suited for coral growth. The corals which you listed have been grown under a variety of different lighting conditions including differrent spectrum LED with good results. I think that you should focus on feeding your corals. Nutrient export is accomplished in many ways. Xenia pruning is one nutrient export mechanism that could return dividends in sales. Macro export is another.
Happy trails,
Patrick
 
Thanks,

That's about one foot of the top section of the 11 feet of display tanks, there are also 3 frag and gwo uout ttanks and a seahorse tnk on the system.

Aside from the seahorses and clownfish, there are surgeon fish( tangs and a rabbit fish) a few angels, various wrasses, several dragonets and mandarins , cardinals, some anthias, a few damsels , a couple of butterflies and I'm sure I left a few out .

Visiting your system just went to the top of my bucket list;)

A couple of questions
From your statement about a filter sock.. Is it necessary if you are feeding a lot of chopped up raw sea food?

You haven't tried led's. Is that because they don't add the necessary uv' s like T5,s or halides?

What lights are you using?
 
I don't use socks or other mechanical filtration. I like the food to circulate around .

The only exception is one on the drain line from the seahorse tank because food and waste levels there are inordinately high. Seahorses don't have much of stomach; they eat a lot but just pass most of it through. Fecal pellets are surprising large form them.That drain goes about 400gph vs total drainage in the system of somewhere over 4500gph.

I use some blue led strips for extra pop( reef brites)_ .I am a long time user of metal halide and vho actinic supplementation and I'm reluctant to change since I' happy with my results and see no real need to change the coral environment for now.
A couple of leather/ softie tanks run with t5.
 
Balance and Diversity

Balance and Diversity

Thanks,

The system is about 11years old ,time flies. It started with a 90 gallon and I've built it around that. No new tank add ons in about 6 years. No serious coral issues in over 5.5.

PO4 runs 0.02ppm to 0.04ppm per hanah 713,.NO3 around 0.2ppm per Salifert test.

The adult seahorse tank is a 75 gallon housing 12 animals, it is plumbed into the main system. It is the only drain of seven in the system that is fitted with a filter sock. Seahorse take a lot of food and pas most of it out as waste. There are 7 tanks total integrated in the 650 gallon system which houses sps, lps, leathers, anemones, zoanthidae some nps( dendrophylia, and sponges). Goniopora do surprisingly well too. The fry grow out tanks and new hatch nursuries are on separate system, need to control hydroids with fenbendazole there and that is deadly for a reef tank. New fry get atremia nauplii hatched daily for the first 5 weeks or so before weaning to mysis.

As for feeding, I use a lot of food about three ounces of frozen per day to feed the 50 or so fish. I broadcast feed the mix of roughly 60% mysis, 30% brine and 10% bloodworm with a little cyclopeeze, cyclops or nutrimar ova,twice per day. The seahorse get this mix only once per day in the pm ;they get PE mysis in the am. In addition ,the tanks receive some spirulina flake, Prime Reef flake ,nori and a little krill 3xs per week.


Tom,

Your extended, integrated system demonstrates a diversity in reef management that approaches nature in diversity of zone management. Natures protein skimmer would be illustrated by the foam on the waves. Your introduction of food, including carbon dosing, shows an enhancement to nature that few can contest with considering the success of your system as a whole and your SPS dominate tanks in particular. Few hobbiest can provide this diversity in zone management. The indigenous bacteria in your extended integrated system provide a diversity that most reefkeepers can not approach. While after 11 years, you have shown it unnecessary to reintroduce bacteria diversity, I suggest that for the majority of reefkeepers this would not be the case.

Do you consider introduction of diversity in bacteria as bad?

I suspect that in 11 years, you have introduced some diversity in bacteria with either fish or corals from outside of your system. Live food that is purchased at the seafood market, when added to the tank will introduce bacteria diversity.

While not having the resources to prove the point, in the last 5 years, there is an arising awareness to the importance of diverse bacteria populations not just as a source of food for filter feeders but as probiotic bacteria to contend with bad bacteria that cause disease in fish and coral.

We seldom see the rise of unhealthy bacteria populations until it is too late and we have to contend with the results of the disease.

As in all things, I seek to learn.
Patrick
 
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http://coralhealth.spatial.hawaii.edu/health.html

Reef forming corals provide habitat for highly diverse and productive communities of organisms throughout the world’s tropical and subtropical oceans. Corals are invertebrate animals related to jellyfish and sea anemones. Inside a coral is a consortium of algae, bacteria, archaea, viruses, and fungi all living in a dynamic equilibrium with the coral that acts as a host to them (1,2). These coral-microorganism communities all work together as a functional symbiosis called the ‘coral holobiont’ (3,4). The coral holobiont is responsible for the trophic and structural foundation of coral reef ecosystems (5). It is because of the mutualistic symbiosis between corals and photosynthetic dinoflagellates, which fix large quantities of carbon dioxide, coral reefs are among the most productive ecosystems on the planet.

For my level of understanding, a functional symbiosis indicates a complex process that indicate more than indigenous and random bacteria. In the next article that I link there is a communication process between diverse bacteria in the community that provides a healthy balance in the population as needs arise. Quorum sensing within this bacteria community provides for cellular communication which controls symbiosis of bacteria and microorganisms within and on the coral. It sounds like the BORG to me.
Patrick

http://www.consiliencejournal.org/index.php/consilience/article/viewFile/363/194

first paragraph

The coral reefs are declining in vitality and quantity in all
parts of the world. Microbiomes exist symbiotically on the
individual coral polyps. With this understanding comes the
idea that microbiomes may coordinate survival through their
inhabiting microbe colonies in order to sustain the life of the
coral polyps. Of particular interest is quorum sensing, a form
of bacterial communication known to coordinate gene
expression in density-dependent bacteria. The importance of
understanding the symbiotic relationship between microbes’
use of quorum sensing and the coral it inhabits may offer
insight in how microbiological colonies promote reef health
and how external toxins alter these molecular processes.

last paragraph

These environmental threats are damaging to reef health since they
not only decrease the biodiversity of the reefs and aquatic organisms that
surround reefs by directly damaging the biodiversity, but they also interfere
with the symbiosis of the bacteria/microorganisms on the coral which
interferes with proper cellular communication, thus also negatively impacting
the reefs. They kill the diversity of bacteria, which means that there are not
the proper concentrations, density, and diversity of species to promote
proper gene expression for quorum sensing. Since they cannot use this
mechanism and give off their beneficial byproducts because they do not
facilitate mechanisms associated with quorum sensing, the reefs suffer. When
the microbial processes within coral are decimated due to environmental
threats, their use of quorum sensing seizes, thereby decreasing the overall
biodiversity within the reef. The importance of understanding the role of
bacterial cell communication in coral reef habitats may lead to ways of
understanding the role it plays in life and may lead researchers to ideas
relating to sustaining their life given the inevitable variables threatening their
survival. Temperature, pollutants, and human direct and indirect contact
create a response in the coral by decimating their bacterial cell
communication system and therefore decreasing the overall biodiversity of
the coral reefs. In order to provide solutions on how to sustain the coral
reefs through the coming climate change, one must understand their microbe
colonies and their use of quorum sensing. Once scientists and experts have
an idea about how quorum sensing and microbe colonies work with coral,
ideas such as density manipulation in microbes facilitating quorum sensing
may restore balance and overall reef health and prevent coral disease in at
risk areas.


Most of the research I found was related to declining reefs with a focus on global warming because that is where the research grants are. Feldman's group is one of the few scientific papers focused on these same bacteria communities within our captive ecosystems. In light of these articles, loss of diversity in bacteria populations has serious consequences. With certain reef keeping methods like ULNS that experience unexplained crashes, the underlying cause could easily be explained by loss of these diverse bacteria populations.
I live and learn.
Patrick
 
Last edited:
I didn't note a pH problem in my eariler read. . What is the pH day/night? How much calcium hydroxide/kalk are you dosing? How are you dosing it?Are you dosing other alkalinity supplements? I'd expect pH at least in the low 8 range with 13 dkh unless CO2 was really high.

Another thought: If you are growing large amounts of algae, an iron deficiency is possible. I'd save that one for later.

My ph was always 7.8-7.9 before I started dosing lime water. My Dkh was around 11 when I wasn't dosing lime water, it has since climbed to 13. My sump and refugium are in my basement where there is very little outside air, opening the windows is not an option, since my neighbor is constantly blowing dust around with his lawn mower :mad2: Before I added my refugium about a year ago my Dkh was consistently around 8, it would get depleted and I would dose two part in order to keep a good level. My calcium was always around 400. Then what changed was I started my refugium with miracle mud and since then my calcium and Dkh climbed above normal levels on their own. I haven't dosed two part in about 11 months. I only dose enough lime water to keep the pH at 8.2 from my tank's normal pH of 7.8. I use an "IV drip" method using an actual IV line and a gallon of RODI, I add 2.5 teaspoons of pickling lime/ gallon, and I drip it at a rate of 1 drop every two seconds. My pH drops from 8.2 to 8.1 at night. The problem is all my tanks are covered and my basement is the only place for oxygen exchange, but there technically no oxygen down there. I have an air line coming in to bring oxygen, but it helps very little.
 
Imperator,

RE GAC: As a longtime grandfather I think it's great you listen to your father and your own experiences as you interpret them . As an aquarist, I can only tell you that I have not seen any HHLE even on my 10 year old hippo.
\
A useful alternative or addition to GAC for organics removal might be fresh Seachem purigen if you like . It's relatively pricey. Though they calim it can be regenerated with bleach; too many experienced reefer's have had difficucty with it when regerated for my taste, I've used it fresh without any issues.

I think HHLE is ultimately caused by stress, but that's just my opinion. Perhaps, the poor diets, poor water quality, the dosing of chemicals, and the lack in consistency with all this things can cause the fish enough stress to develop the disease. I'm going to give GAC a try intermittently to see what results I get, although I have to admit I'm a little scare to try.
 
So, who has tried carbon dosing without a skimmer? I know what many are going to say, but is there a way to export the dead bacteria before they release phosphates back into the water column? I have heard of somebody making it work with VItamin C dosing. Also, what types of carbon dosing are more effective? I have heard of someone dosing beer to his system. Lastly, how does Sanjay Joshi keep SPS without a skimmer?
 
So, who has tried carbon dosing without a skimmer? I know what many are going to say, but is there a way to export the dead bacteria before they release phosphates back into the water column? I have heard of somebody making it work with VItamin C dosing. Also, what types of carbon dosing are more effective? I have heard of someone dosing beer to his system. Lastly, how does Sanjay Joshi keep SPS without a skimmer?

There are more than a few post on this thread that show skimmerless SPS dominate tanks. Some of these tanks have been maintained in excess of 20 years.
Patrick
 
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So, who has tried carbon dosing without a skimmer? I know what many are going to say, but is there a way to export the dead bacteria before they release phosphates back into the water column? I have heard of somebody making it work with VItamin C dosing. Also, what types of carbon dosing are more effective? I have heard of someone dosing beer to his system. Lastly, how does Sanjay Joshi keep SPS without a skimmer?

Have you read the "bible" yet on carbon dosing.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105

This should answer your post and even more of your questions
 
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Scotty,
I posted this link on TOC in skimmed and unskimmed reef aquarium to your thread on carbon dosing. It should apply to this discussion as well.
Patrick

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDt8QTAp0Cs

This vidio was made in April of this year. Uv syterilizer had been operation for 4 months at that time. My tank is lightly stocked which serves me well as I am a "Laissez Faire" reefkeeper.

Love that sea apple

Good article I replied to it
 
I don't use socks or other mechanical filtration. I like the food to circulate around .

The only exception is one on the drain line from the seahorse tank because food and waste levels there are inordinately high. Seahorses don't have much of stomach; they eat a lot but just pass most of it through. Fecal pellets are surprising large form them.That drain goes about 400gph vs total drainage in the system of somewhere over 4500gph.

I use some blue led strips for extra pop( reef brites)_ .I am a long time user of metal halide and vho actinic supplementation and I'm reluctant to change since I' happy with my results and see no real need to change the coral environment for now.
A couple of leather/ softie tanks run with t5.

Tks
A lot of SPs coral keepers in my area are adding a strip of t5's back into led lighting systems because they feel the corals are not doing as well without the uv's
How to you find your hydro bill now with using the halides
 
Tom,

Your extended, integrated system demonstrates a diversity in reef management that approaches nature in diversity of zone management. Natures protein skimmer would be illustrated by the foam on the waves. Your introduction of food, including carbon dosing, shows an enhancement to nature that few can contest with considering the success of your system as a whole and your SPS dominate tanks in particular. Few hobbiest can provide this diversity in zone management. The indigenous bacteria in your extended integrated system provide a diversity that most reefkeepers can not approach. While after 11 years, you have shown it unnecessary to reintroduce bacteria diversity, I suggest that for the majority of reefkeepers this would not be the case.

Do you consider introduction of diversity in bacteria as bad?

I suspect that in 11 years, you have introduced some diversity in bacteria with either fish or corals from outside of your system. Live food that is purchased at the seafood market, when added to the tank will introduce bacteria diversity.

While not having the resources to prove the point, in the last 5 years, there is an arising awareness to the importance of diverse bacteria populations not just as a source of food for filter feeders but as probiotic bacteria to contend with bad bacteria that cause disease in fish and coral.

We seldom see the rise of unhealthy bacteria populations until it is too late and we have to contend with the results of the disease.

As in all things, I seek to learn.
Patrick

This is indeed my concern and why I am devoting a lot of my energies into it.

I've asked the question a lot lately of how to introduce different bacteria back into the tank without an ocean in my backyard
Tks this is the first definitive answer
Use raw sea food
I look for more in these great posts
 
http://coralhealth.spatial.hawaii.edu/health.html

Reef forming corals provide habitat for highly diverse and productive communities of organisms throughout the world's tropical and subtropical oceans. Corals are invertebrate animals related to jellyfish and sea anemones. Inside a coral is a consortium of algae, bacteria, archaea, viruses, and fungi all living in a dynamic equilibrium with the coral that acts as a host to them (1,2). These coral-microorganism communities all work together as a functional symbiosis called the "˜coral holobiont' (3,4). The coral holobiont is responsible for the trophic and structural foundation of coral reef ecosystems (5). It is because of the mutualistic symbiosis between corals and photosynthetic dinoflagellates, which fix large quantities of carbon dioxide, coral reefs are among the most productive ecosystems on the planet.

For my level of understanding, a functional symbiosis indicates a complex process that indicate more than indigenous and random bacteria. In the next article that I link there is a communication process between diverse bacteria in the community that provides a healthy balance in the population as needs arise. Quorum sensing within this bacteria community provides for cellular communication which controls symbiosis of bacteria and microorganisms within and on the coral. It sounds like the BORG to me.
Patrick

http://www.consiliencejournal.org/index.php/consilience/article/viewFile/363/194

first paragraph

The coral reefs are declining in vitality and quantity in all
parts of the world. Microbiomes exist symbiotically on the
individual coral polyps. With this understanding comes the
idea that microbiomes may coordinate survival through their
inhabiting microbe colonies in order to sustain the life of the
coral polyps. Of particular interest is quorum sensing, a form
of bacterial communication known to coordinate gene
expression in density-dependent bacteria. The importance of
understanding the symbiotic relationship between microbes'
use of quorum sensing and the coral it inhabits may offer
insight in how microbiological colonies promote reef health
and how external toxins alter these molecular processes.

last paragraph

These environmental threats are damaging to reef health since they
not only decrease the biodiversity of the reefs and aquatic organisms that
surround reefs by directly damaging the biodiversity, but they also interfere
with the symbiosis of the bacteria/microorganisms on the coral which
interferes with proper cellular communication, thus also negatively impacting
the reefs. They kill the diversity of bacteria, which means that there are not
the proper concentrations, density, and diversity of species to promote
proper gene expression for quorum sensing. Since they cannot use this
mechanism and give off their beneficial byproducts because they do not
facilitate mechanisms associated with quorum sensing, the reefs suffer. When
the microbial processes within coral are decimated due to environmental
threats, their use of quorum sensing seizes, thereby decreasing the overall
biodiversity within the reef. The importance of understanding the role of
bacterial cell communication in coral reef habitats may lead to ways of
understanding the role it plays in life and may lead researchers to ideas
relating to sustaining their life given the inevitable variables threatening their
survival. Temperature, pollutants, and human direct and indirect contact
create a response in the coral by decimating their bacterial cell
communication system and therefore decreasing the overall biodiversity of
the coral reefs. In order to provide solutions on how to sustain the coral
reefs through the coming climate change, one must understand their microbe
colonies and their use of quorum sensing. Once scientists and experts have
an idea about how quorum sensing and microbe colonies work with coral,
ideas such as density manipulation in microbes facilitating quorum sensing
may restore balance and overall reef health and prevent coral disease in at
risk areas.


Most of the research I found was related to declining reefs with a focus on global warming because that is where the research grants are. Feldman's group is one of the few scientific papers focused on these same bacteria communities within our captive ecosystems. In light of these articles, loss of diversity in bacteria populations has serious consequences. With certain reef keeping methods like ULNS that experience unexplained crashes, the underlying cause could easily be explained by loss of these diverse bacteria populations.
I live and learn.
Patrick
Once again great articles Patrick and thanks for posting
I still am curious how one determines a ULN situation due to the limitation of our testing kits.
I have posted this on another thread however IMO it's appropriate here
I do not think that people are taking full advantage of the caveats of carbon dosing. Firstly they are not increasing their bioloads. I feel that a lot of previous constraints on the amt of fish one can be lifted. I'm finding the main constraint being compatibility and territorial rights.
Secondly they are not increasing or enriching the environment
Both of these factors although caveats should be treated as necessities to negate the impact of decreased levels of nitrates and phosphates

Please keep the articles coming...I'm loving them
 
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