Skimmerless: who's doing it? pros and cons

Advanced Aquarist just published an article by Jamse Fatheree on his skimmerless tank. It's a good read.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/201...ider&utm_medium=slider&utm_campaign=clickthru

I meant James 3 years ago in Dallas at a hobby conference. His topic was economy in reefkeeping. I used his idea of vertical loop current being the most econominal way to move water in a reef tank. The physics of inertia make it work. It is the basis for macro tumble culture in narrow rectangle tanks.

In reading the article, he noted that his abundant corals are the biofilter. That is what Feldman noted in his article on carbon dosing in the conclusion section.
Patrick
 
I meant James 3 years ago in Dallas at a hobby conference. His topic was economy in reefkeeping. I used his idea of vertical loop current being the most econominal way to move water in a reef tank. The physics of inertia make it work. It is the basis for macro tumble culture in narrow rectangle tanks.

In reading the article, he noted that his abundant corals are the biofilter. That is what Feldman noted in his article on carbon dosing in the conclusion section.
Patrick
I thought it was "many mouths on every surface", ie: corals sponges, tube worms... Either way, a healthy system does not need a lot of extra filtration. activated Carbon seems to be the only other thing he uses.

He does not mention how long it took his tank to get to this point. Excellent article though!
 
I agree coral cover plays a big role. Aeration and flow might be a concern for me.
 
I meant James 3 years ago in Dallas at a hobby conference. His topic was economy in reefkeeping. I used his idea of vertical loop current being the most econominal way to move water in a reef tank. The physics of inertia make it work. It is the basis for macro tumble culture in narrow rectangle tanks.

In reading the article, he noted that his abundant corals are the biofilter. That is what Feldman noted in his article on carbon dosing in the conclusion section.
Patrick

From his article I believe he states that since he stopped skimming his population of copepods and other inverts has increased?
Does skimming make that much a difference on the population of those critters?
 
From his article I believe he states that since he stopped skimming his population of copepods and other inverts has increased?
Does skimming make that much a difference on the population of those critters?

Scotty,
Its a Question of Balance. With nothing else changing, going skimmerless increases bacteria counts in our reef tanks. Bacteria are the bottom of the food chain. There are numerous documented cases showing increases in micro faun and fana when going skimmerless. Of course the same results can be accomplished in other ways.
Patrick
 
From his article I believe he states that since he stopped skimming his population of copepods and other inverts has increased?
Does skimming make that much a difference on the population of those critters?
I remember years ago Eric Borneman looked at some skimate samples under a microscope and was surprised at the amount of life he saw. I don't think we don't really know what a skimmer pulls out of the water.
 
I'm not sure about documented studies on copepods etc relaled to skimming ; haven't seen any.
I think more foods whether bacteria ,detritus or phytoplankton can bounce populations. I have plenty of pods and such in the skimmed and unskimmed tanks that are fed well,lots of mini serpent stars as well .
Seems a skimmer would push some stuff like precipitants and some fauana, bacteria and foods along in addition to the dissolved amphipathic and hydrophobic organics it removes whether that has a significant effect on populations is unknown to me.Anecdotally it doeson't seem to in my tanks.
. Eric Borneman also showed how effective skimmers provide aeration in his series of articles entitled The Right to Breathe which examined oxygen levels paricualry at night .
I don't remember his skimmate analysis;is there a link for it?
 
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Tom. I don't think he ever did a formal analysis. Just made the observation that there was quite a bit of live 'stuff' in there. He never entirely abandoned skimming that I know of either, just cut back.

I expect that to do a proper analysis of the effects of skimming on tanks would take a lot of time, effort and many tanks. I would be surprised if that ever happened.

My interest in skimmerless tanks is mostly to reduce complexity and cost. I like a more minimalist approach to reefkeeping where possible.
 
I'm not sure about documented studies on copepods etc relaled to skimming ; haven't seen any.
I think more foods whether bacteria ,detritus or phytoplankton can bounce populations. I have plenty of pods and such in the skimmed and unskimmed tanks that are fed well,lots of mini serpent stars as well .
Seems a skimmer would push some stuff like precipitants and some fauana, bacteria and foods along in addition to the dissolved amphipathic and hydrophobic organics it removes whether that has a significant effect on populations is unknown to me.Anecdotally it doeson't seem to in my tanks.
. Eric Borneman also showed how effective skimmers provide aeration in his series of articles entitled The Right to Breathe which examined oxygen levels paricualry at night .
I don't remember his skimmate analysis;is there a link for it?

Tom,
Sprung &. Delbric in Reef Aquarium V3 on Pg 309 under the heading "disadvantages of skimming" references a study by Japanese hobbiest on skimmate removed from reef aquarium (Mizuno, 2000)

The two authors sum up the discussion very well. So did the Moody Blues in
"Question of Balance".

"There is still a great deal of debate about whether protein skimming removes a significant amount of trace minerals, compared to the metabolic actions of the animals , plants, micro organisms and bacteria growing in the aquarium
(Archterkamp, 1986; Keith 1980). However, there is no doubt that some elements such as iodine and iron are removed both by skimmers and natural biological processes and that they must be replenished."

Considering your extended integrated system, there is little dout in my mind that whatever is removed by a skimmer is made up for with food production from your DSB & macro algae refugiums. This would not be the case with most reef hobiest. Plantbrain said it well in an earlier post on this thread. He liked the looks of macro algae refugiums better than skimmate. Plus he could sell his macroalgae to other hobiest.

Oxygen production is easily dealt with using a wet/dry filter and a reverse photo period in the refugium.
Patrick
 
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Tom. I don't think he ever did a formal analysis. Just made the observation that there was quite a bit of live 'stuff' in there. He never entirely abandoned skimming that I know of either, just cut back.

I expect that to do a proper analysis of the effects of skimming on tanks would take a lot of time, effort and many tanks. I would be surprised if that ever happened.

My interest in skimmerless tanks is mostly to reduce complexity and cost. I like a more minimalist approach to reefkeeping where possible.

As a member of MARSH and having read Erick's books, he was a proponent of skimmerless operations using extended refugiums, lagoons and cryptic zones. After experiencing a system crash while on extended travels away from home, he included a skimmer in his integrated system as a back up to natural bio filters.
Patrick

PS. That was 10 years ago. In light of carbon dosing methods, that view may have changed.
 
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Scotty,
Its a Question of Balance. With nothing else changing, going skimmerless increases bacteria counts in our reef tanks. Bacteria are the bottom of the food chain. There are numerous documented cases showing increases in micro faun and fana when going skimmerless. Of course the same results can be accomplished in other ways.
Patrick

Are refer to the other email you sent me
"
Scotty,
Did you see the reference in the Feldmen study where some of the salt is derived from drying beds in the Red Sea. In documented results, bacteria counts were significantly increased. This indicates that bacteria survive in the dehydrated salt crystal.
Patrick"
I have TMTF so I can't remember where this was discussed. I believe the group felt this was a myth?
 
Under section 3.2 of the test study titled: Carbon dosing planned and inadvertant: Feldman notes sources of contamination in test study.

Five of the six salt mixes (Red Sea excepted) displayed little bacterial contamination beyond the pure water control, and the bacteria populations fluctuated but did not consistently rise over time as might be expected if sufficient nutrients were available (cf. Fig. 13). Thus, there is no reason to suspect that any of these five salt mixes themselves contribute to the high levels of bacteria in the make-up saltwater of Fig. 13. Red Sea salt, on the other hand, does appear to bring with it a not insignificant bacterial load. Once again, there was little increase over 5 days, indicating that sufficient nutrients for growth were not available under these "sterile" conditions. What is so special about Red Sea salt? This salt, uniquely among the six mixes tested, is made, at least partially, by drying authentic seawater. Thus, it appears to retain some viable bacteria from the drying process. The other five salt mixes are prepared from mixing strictly chemical sources of the components. Overall, it appears justified to conclude that the significant populations of bacteria in mixed saltwater are a result of container contamination and not salt mix introduction per se.
 
Considering your extended integrated system, there is little dout in my mind that whatever is removed by a skimmer is made up for with food production from your DSB & macro algae refugiums. This would not be the case with most reef hobiest. Plantbrain said it well in an earlier post on this thread. He liked the looks of macro algae refugiums better than skimmate. Plus he could sell his macroalgae to other hobiest.

Oxygen production is easily dealt with using a wet/dry filter and a reverse photo period in the refugium.
Patrick


I don't think my system is that unique. I do like to use a number of methods in combiantion.

I lke macro refugia but they don't reduce TOC . They add orgnics that need to be accounted for in some way. As for aeration there are many ways to do it.

Skimmers offer a very large amount of surface area in a small space without adding oxygen depleting ,CO2 producing bacteria activity from ammonia oxidizing bacteria. Not sure how big a wet dry and or a reverse photo period macro refugium would have to be to aerate as well even if concerns about nitrate production in the wet and dry were set aside or deemed insignifcant in a given system.
 
I lke macro refugia but they don't reduce TOC . They add orgnics that need to be accounted for in some way.


That would be true, only if, I did not harvest macro algae from the refugium.
Patrick
 
Here is the science behind why foam fractionazation is selective with the types/sizes of bacteria that adher to the bubbles.

Whats in the skimmate?

Introduction; in part.

You are here: Home › Volume IX › January 2010 › Feature Article: Further Studies on Protein Skimmer Performance
Feature Article: Further Studies on Protein Skimmer Performance
By Ken S. Feldman, Kelly M. Maers
Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Many factors contribute to the 'value' of a skimmer to an aquarist, including quality of construction, size, footprint, noise level, ease of cleaning, energy efficiency of the pump, and of course, the ability to remove organic waste from aquarium water.


CONTENTS
The Modified Mathematical Model
The Math Behind It
The Experimental Design
Results
Skimmer Comparison Studies
Conclusions
Acknowledgments
References
We published a paper on skimmer performance in the January 2009 issue of Advanced Aquarist magazine that detailed, for the first time, an experimental methodology to provide meaningful metrics for both the rate at which skimmers removed organics and the extent of the removal of these organics from aquarium water (Feldman, 2009). Highlights of these earlier studies included:


Analysis of these data for four representative skimmers; a EuroReef CS80 needlewheel skimmer, a Precision Marine ES100 venturi skimmer, a Precision Marine AP624 airstone skimmer, and an ETSS Evolution 500 downdraft skimmer.
Conclusions about relative skimmer performance based upon these measurements:
All four skimmers removed both BSA and TOC with similar rate constants; in short, "bubbles is bubbles", and there was no significant difference between these four skimmers in their intrinsic abilities to strip organics from saltwater.
Only about 20 - 30% of the measurable TOC in reef tank water was removed by skimming, whereas almost all of the BSA was removed from saltwater by skimming.

In the last paragraph before the conclusion, Feldmen discribes the selective removal of certain bacteria types at the molecular level due to thermodynamics and hydropobic surfaces.
The discussion is above my pay grade, but I understand the implications.
Patrick

One of the more surprising and important observations to emerge from the earlier skimmer studies was that the four original skimmers tested removed only 20 - 30% of the measurable TOC in the reef tank water examined; the remaining 70 - 80% of the TOC was not removed by skimming. Extension of these measurements to the three new skimmers tested in this study did not add much to the argument. The Reef Octopus' removal amount fell within this range, whereas the Bubble King and Royal Exclusiv skimmers appeared to remove incrementally more of the extant TOC, perhaps up to the mid-30% range. An explanation for this observation was offered in the January 2009 Advanced Aquarist article; in summary, skimmers can only remove what bubbles trap, and bubbles only trap molecules and/or particles (i.e., bacteria, diatoms, etc.) with some compelling thermodynamic reason to adhere to the bubble's surface. On the molecular level, this surface association is typically driven by the molecule/particle having a hydrophobic (= water hating) patch that can be buried in the bubble surface/interior. This arrangement avoids the energetically penalizing juxtaposition of hydrophobic surfaces with (hydrophilic) water, and so overall the system energy is lowered (a favorable occurrence). Some of the molecules/particles in aquarium water will meet this hydrophobic region criterion, and some will not. The ones that do not have a sufficiently large hydrophobic patch will not interact with bubbles, and hence will not be removed by skimming. From, the results of the experiments described here, it appears that only 20 - 35 % of the measurable TOC meets this hydrophobicity criterion (= [TOCl] defined earlier) whereas the remaining 65 - 80 % does not (= [TOCr] defined earlier). In essence, bubbles are a rather poor media for removal of organic nutrients from aquarium water compared to, for example, GAC. However, they do have the distinct benefit of being cheap.
 
What is in the skimmate: details. The following Feldman study details what is in the skimmate. Is is very similiar to the Jappanese study referenced in Reef Aquarium Volum 3.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature

Introduction:

The rather counterintuitive observation that protein skimmers remove only 20 - 35% of the measurable Total Organic Carbon (TOC) in reef aquarium water (Feldman, 2009; Feldman, 2010) begs the question, "what is all that "stuff" that collects in our skimmer cups?" Is it really TOC, or at least a labile, or "skimmable", fraction of TOC? Attempts to identify TOC components from authentic ocean water are still in their infancy, and to date this material has resisted detailed chemical analysis. Recent efforts primarily by Hatcher and colleagues (Mopper, 2007; De la Rosa, 2008) using sophisticated mass spectrometry and nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy techniques have revealed that authentic ocean TOC is comprised of tens of thousands of discrete compounds that include chemical representatives from all of the major biochemical groups; lipids, peptides, carbohydrates, heterocycles, aromatics, etc. The relationship between ocean TOC and aquarium TOC still remains to be established, but it seems likely that the TOC in our aquaria is equally diverse and rich in its chemical complexity. Thus, it is equally unlikely that a chemical breakdown of aquarium TOC will be forthcoming in the near future. Nevertheless, there are analytical methods that can reveal and quantify most of the elemental components of TOC, and with a little chemical intuition, allow for the assignment of some of these components to chemical categories. These analytical methods are called Elemental (or Combustion) Analysis and Inductively Coupled Plasma Atomic Emission Spectroscopy. Both methods are available from many commercial operations; we used Columbia Analytical Services in Tucson AZ for our skimmate samples (http://www.caslab.com/).

Conclusion:

The chemical/elemental composition of skimmate generated by an H&S 200-1260 skimmer on a 175-gallon reef tank over the course of several days or a week had some surprises. Only a minor amount of the skimmate (solid + liquid) could be attributed to organic carbon (TOC); about 29%, and most of that material was not water soluble, i.e., was not dissolved organic carbon. The majority of the recovered skimmate solid, apart from the commons ions of seawater, was CaCO3, MgCO3, and SiO2 - inorganic compounds! The origin of these species is not known with certainity, but a good case can be made that the SiO2 stems from the shells of diatoms. The CaCO3 might be derived from other planktonic microbes bearing calcium carbonate shells, or might come from calcium reactor effluent. To the extent that the solid skimmate consists of microflora, then some proportion of the insoluble organic material removed by skimming would then simply be the organic components (the "guts") of these microflora. These microflora do concentrate P, N, and C nutrients from the water column, and so their removal via skimming does constitute a means of nutrient export.
 
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