Skimmers Debunked

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I did a lot of reading and asked a lot of questions years ago on this forum about skimmers. After I thought I knew enough, I purchased a moderately priced skimmer. That was over 10 years ago. I'm still using that same skimmer.

Myths are perpetuated by and scams are inflicted on hobbyists who don't know what they don't know. Experience is a much better teacher than Youtube.
 
How the bubbles are made effects bubble size. Your first statement made no reference to "correct bubble size," hence it was not entirely correct.

Kevin

Why do you insist on trolling me? The statement was ENTIRELY correct. How something is made is not as important as WHAT is made. How the bubbles are made remains irrelevant and is totally correct even though size matters, as I'm sure you have been told.
 
No problem. Here are some pics of one which I just finished, and the other which I installed in the display tank just to see how it was going to work. Hard to see but you can make out some foam and skimmate.

Both will be moved to the sump in a couple of days.

How old is this system?
 
Why do you insist on trolling me? The statement was ENTIRELY correct. How something is made is not as important as WHAT is made. How the bubbles are made remains irrelevant and is totally correct even though size matters, as I'm sure you have been told.

Me trolling you? Seems you are the one trolling by not admitting you could possibly be in error. Enjoy your perfection!

:rolleyes:

Kevin
 
Just thought of something... Sanders use to sell a 2.5" ID X 12" or 18" reverse flow limewood airstone driven internal protein skimmer that suction cupped to the glass. It skimmed water from the surface. They were like 30 bucks. They worked. Not very efficient and pretty ugly... but they worked. I could see a lot in the OP's picture, but I think maybe the operation is similar.
 
How is #1 wrong? IT DOES NOT MATTER how the bubbles are made. You could make them by farting so long as you had enough gas and the bubbles were the correct size. How is not the same as what.

Again it absolutely matter how bubbles are made because it determines the bubble size and therefore air/liquid interface area. How bubbles are made is the thing that determines bubble size. You cant first say "How the bubbles are made is irrelevant" and then talk about their size and motion after it has been pointed out. All the fancy stuff in skimmers like venturis, needle impellers, dual pumps, bubble plates and sleek cone shaped bodies, etc are there to produce and maintain very small bubbles.

As for #4 there has been no study done of bacterial growth inside the skimmer to facilitate skimming. If you know of such research please let us know.

There is no study done on your claim either. Why not show some actual research done on what you said before asking for some? Mine is based on personal experience as well as the collective wisdom of large number of people who experienced the same phenomena. I also described you a very simple experiment. You can do that and publish your results if you are that interested in it.

Or here is an even simpler example. When you get a new skimmer (or thoroughly clean an old one), adjust the water level within the skimmer to the highest level. At first it will skim very dry even if the water level inside it is high. But it will gradually start to skim wetter over the course of a week or two (depending on how mature the system is), and it might even start to overflow. So you would need tune it down (reduce the water level within the skimmer). Why do you think this happens? It happens because as biofilm builds up inside the skimmer surface and that increases bubble stability. Gradually more bubbles reach to the surface due to this, more foam is generated and you would need to reduce the water level to compensate.

PSA; people disagreeing with what you said is not trolling.
 
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Fine

Fine

[QUOTE=


"'There is no study done on your claim either."

Well then I withdraw all my comments past and future and will not post again until I have peer reviewed scientific studies.
 
"'There is no study done on your claim either."

Well then I withdraw all my comments past and future and will not post again until I have peer reviewed scientific studies.

Or simply dont ask for peer reviewed scientific studies for information presented to you about a hobby that is mostly build up upon anecdotal evidence.
 
There have been plenty of studies done on skimming...
Here is one:

THE DEVELOPMENT OF A METHOD FOR THE QUANTITATIVE EVALUATION OF PROTEIN SKIMMER PERFORMANCE
By Ken S. Feldman, Kelly M. Maers, Lauren F. Vernese, Elizabeth A. Huber, Matthew R.
Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802.

Page 21-38

"Four skimmers having four different reaction chamber volumes and representing four distinct types of bubble generation (needlewheel, venturi, airstone, and downdraft) were tested under the manufacturers' specified conditions. These tests revealed that there was no demonstrable difference between the Euroreef CS80 needlewheel skimmer, the Precision Marine ES100 venturi skimmer, the Precision Marine AP624 airstone skimmer, and the ETSS evolution 500 downdraft skimmer with respect to the rate constant for either TOC or BSA removal.
Thus it is fair to conclude that, at least for the skimmers tested under the specified conditions, the individual manufacturers' claims of superior performance are without merit. Whether this conclusion can be extended to other skimmers remains to be seen.
..."
 
Why do you insist on trolling me? The statement was ENTIRELY correct. How something is made is not as important as WHAT is made. How the bubbles are made remains irrelevant and is totally correct even though size matters, as I'm sure you have been told.

he is not the one trolling.
 
I thought it would be good to examine some of the myths and outright scams concerning skimmers.

1-Do you really need a skimmer?

Maybe not, but it certainly is good to have one. So go ahead and get one. It is just another aspect of filtration, and it is possible you might not need any filtration if all you have is very few fish in a bare bottom tank IF you do regular water changes. BUT - filtration is good.

2-Does the type of skimmer matter?

Absolutely not. You can build one using PVC and a wood airstone or spend $1600 on a fancy piece of overpriced plastic. How the bubbles are made is irrelevant. The physics or protein skimming remains the same.

3-What might matter?

If you are concerned about efficiency then a commercial unit may be for you. But I use 2 - 2" PVC home made skimmers with wood airstones. They produce a nice steady foam and skimmate. What really matters is the placement in the tank or sump. The water level determines how it works. You will easily find the best level for it to be at.

4-Does it need time to ""break in"?

No. Nothing changes from the second you put a new skimmer in the sump to a year later. The physics remains the same. This widely held misconception is probably the result of adding a skimmer to a new installation. There will not be anything to skim at first, just as you might find after a major water change.
It's not breaking in, it's waiting for protein to accumulate,

Bottom line though is that paying a thousand dollars for a skimmer is just lunacy.

Here is my .02...ive been in the hobby since wood airstones were commonplace. They make a good foam. Problem is they clog up too quickly and the maintenance on them is a PITA...i believe there are many different ways to achieve the same results. If it works, more power to ya!
 
What attitude?

What attitude?

It is hard to take anything you say seriously with this attitude.

What attitude are you inferring that I have? All I said was that you are lucky to be able to afford top quality equipment? Is THAT an atttitude? Perhaps your attitude is to look down on those who cannot afford to spend huge amounts of money.

I ran across this attitude all the time when I used to sell high end audio gear. Old men with limited hearing upgrading to new expensive amplifiers which promissed to provide what they can no longer hear anyway, to morons buying $5000 speaker cables. And they don't need to hear them - but they want to see what they look like to make sure others will recognize how much they spent.

You list your equipment like a badge of courage. I dare you to just change your equipment list to generic names with no brands.

And here is my new attitude: I take great joy in having a healthy functioning tank with good parameters and healthy growing corals which I put together with DIY and a small budget. And I laugh when I see how much money has been spent in the spectacle of conspicuous comsumption.
 
Feature Article: Further Studies on Protein Skimmer Performance

Feature Article: Further Studies on Protein Skimmer Performance

It is hard to take anything you say seriously with this attitude.

Segment. And don't tell me it is meaningless because I didn't quote which 4 skimmers they compared.

4 -Conclusions about relative skimmer performance based upon these measurements:
All four skimmers removed both BSA and TOC with similar rate constants; in short, "bubbles is bubbles", and there was no significant difference between these four skimmers in their intrinsic abilities to strip organics from saltwater.
Only about 20 - 30% of the measurable TOC in reef tank water was removed by skimming, whereas almost all of the BSA was removed from saltwater by skimming.
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature
 
Segment. And don't tell me it is meaningless because I didn't quote which 4 skimmers they compared.

4 -Conclusions about relative skimmer performance based upon these measurements:
All four skimmers removed both BSA and TOC with similar rate constants; in short, "bubbles is bubbles", and there was no significant difference between these four skimmers in their intrinsic abilities to strip organics from saltwater.
Only about 20 - 30% of the measurable TOC in reef tank water was removed by skimming, whereas almost all of the BSA was removed from saltwater by skimming.
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

You are an interesting case, first you asked for references and after being pointed out you dont have any references either, you started to act like I was the person to start it lol.

About the reference, I want to point out that all these skimmers have on thing in common. They generate and maintain large number of small bubbles. Which contradicts with you original statement of "How the bubbles are made is irrelevant". As the reference shows, you need to be able to make numerous very small bubbles and therefore how the bubbles are made is the most relevant part of a skimmer. Bubbles are bubbles if they are equal in the end, these skimmers employ different methods to to it but achieve similar results. Your original statement has nothing to do with this. If you blow air into a tube and generate large bubbles, that wont function as a skimmer. But according to your statement, that is irrelevant and bubbles are bubbles, it should work the same.

And you make a lot of assumptions as well. First I dont list my equipment so I have no idea what that is coming from. And people can list their equipment if they wanted to, it is not a badge of honor or anything. When someone asks a question, info on that badge can help to both answer and ask equations.

You can build a lot of equipment DIY for much cheaper. Its great to know that you are doing this. I have been in this hobby long enough to remember that DIY skimmers were the only skimmers you could have because there was no commercial skimmer production for "home" sized aquariums. I also remember a lot of DIY skimmers required considerable amount of maintenance, especially the air stone based ones. So costs is not the only thing to consider for most people. I for one leave my tank (which is a mature SPS dominant tank) unattended due to work for 3-4 weeks with everything from feeding to dosing functioning autonomously. I take pride in knowing that my tank can go on on its own without human intervention, as stability is the key requirement for success in this hobby. I dont have a particularly high tech tank, i have no digital readers/dosers or anything. But my thank is stable enough to know that how much alkalinity/Ca/Nitrate etc will be used daily for the next 60 days and those that amount. So everyone here has different thing to be proud about.

It is great that you are proud about building a tank on small budget, like everyone you have something about your tank they you are proud about. But this is where you attitude comes in to play. You act like you are the golden child of reef aquariums and everyone should agree with your ways and what you said. If they dont, you claim they are trolling you and you make statements like;

"And I laugh when I see how much money has been spent in the spectacle of conspicuous comsumption."

"You list your equipment like a badge of courage. I dare you to just change your equipment list to generic names with no brands."

"Great that you can afford a $1000 skimmer and other top shelf gear. Not all of us are so lucky."

"Well then I withdraw all my comments past and future and will not post again until I have peer reviewed scientific studies.".

Take a good look at what you wrote and think about who is the troll here.
 
as posted above, troll feeding is over. stop this thread.

oh and my skimmer didnt cost $1000 but continue making things up.

i run a fish store and do have some low end things on tanks so not sure what thats about .
 
Yes sir!

Yes sir!

This is the message that was sent:
***************
Dear VIVVIV,

You have received a warning at The Reef Tank.

Reason:
-------
Inappropriate content

T answer your question, cowboy is what you do and how you live. Your example is innuendo that is over the line. You seem clever enough to not step over the line but your attitude has been a topic in moderation more than once.
-------

My comment was clever and funny. That you don't have a sense of humor is not my problem What IS a problem for everyone is your notion that you somehow have the authority to impose YOUR set of standards on others. What other things can one get warned over? Are Blacks ok? How about anyone from the LGBTQ community? Must I be a Republican or Democrat? What if I am Pro Choice? Or should I be Pro Life.

Stick to the fish and swearing and name calling. You are not qualified to judge humour. You should also warn all the pathetic lonely hearts who seem to have no other outlet for human contact so they reply to everything with meaningless drivel like " I dunno - maybe you need more light" or "Well I've never tried it, but it looks like Wazoo pumps are pretty good."

But if you are threatened then go ahead and delete my membership. It is probably more useful just to read the forum then to try and help.

FYI
19 Ways to Enhance Your Sense of Humor | Reader's Digest
https://www.rd.com/health/wellness/19-ways-to-enhance-your-sense-of-humor/
 
Ssooooo......

Can I get an answer to my question from page #1?

How well is it working? I had a hard time telling from the pictures.
 
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