Skimming Part-Time

I think the goal with only turning it off is to have a time of the day when there is some nutrients, while the time it is on to have very little to none. A skimmer too small will simply leave nutrients in the tank all the time, and since you still add more and more food it will eventually build up.

In fact with part time skimming i would probably go even another step above what you would normally size (a single step above is normal) just to make sure it actually does its job in the time limit it has.

I see. But how does that replicate a natural reef? If there are to be nutrients in the water wouldn't it be a constant, lower, level on a natural reef? I think water changes would keep the nutrients from building up. I guess if the goal is times of low nutrients and times of very low nutrients then it makes sense. If it is to be a fluctuating amount of nutrients at a low level then water changes with an "underpowered" quality skimmer achieve that too, right? Just trying to understand.

In the end we can't argue results though.
 
I see. But how does that replicate a natural reef? If there are to be nutrients in the water wouldn't it be a constant, lower, level on a natural reef? I think water changes would keep the nutrients from building up. I guess if the goal is times of low nutrients and times of very low nutrients then it makes sense. If it is to be a fluctuating amount of nutrients at a low level then water changes with an "underpowered" quality skimmer achieve that too, right? Just trying to understand.

In the end we can't argue results though.

I think, but as i am not a biologist by any means, that natural reefs actually have very little nutrients during the day, and a little more at night with the predatory fish catching more at that time. Both of these levels may be much lower than that found in a normal tank even with a good setup.

Water changes with an underpowered skimmer could deal with the buildup, but that would require more monitoring and most likely more (and larger) changes than with a larger skimmer. And at least to my understanding the goal is practically no nutrients and low nutrients. Reaching no nutrients with water changes is a lofty goal, especially daily.

The real trick to this whole underpowered/sized/overpowered skimmer deal is that we probably don't even know where the lines are. In some setups a undersized (rating) skimmer may actually be enough, simply because of the rest of the setup and habits; while in some a highly overpowered one may be insufficient because of setup and habits.

But I agree, results don't lie. Sometimes things just work just because they do. It also doesn't mean duplicating the steps will lead to the same results as this is life we are dealing with, there is always a chance something totally unexpected will happen.
 
I turn my skimmer off daily after feeding at which point I also dose MB7. During this 3-4 hr period I see great polyp extension on my Corals. This happens wether I feed or not. I do run bio pellets, so this may be part of the equation and why it has worked for me thus far.
 
Interesting"¦"¦looking at the charts from Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration. It does appear you can have too good a skimmer and remove a lot of the bacteria the coral feed on.

ScreenShot2011-11-01at114508AM.jpg


Non-skimmed tanks are far closer to being like a natural reef in bacteria count. Maybe skimming partime or using a less efficient skimmer might have benefits. It would be interesting to see the results a long term test run by someone. I sure wouldn't do it without running GFO at the same time or have a good algae scrubber system to remove phosphates.
 
I would imagine that this would be a greater benefit to softies tha it would to sps. Althought I guess if they all have their tentacles out they all would benefit. I had always been under the impression that softies (zoas, rics, etc...) liked the water a bit dirtier than say sps or lps.
 
going to follow this one and see how it turns out. I don't know that I would feel safe doing it on a smaller tank like my 30 cube, but on a larger tank I would think it would be more forgiving.
 
I do not have corals yet, but think the idea of going either completely skimmerless or at least running a skimmer 12 hours on, then 12 hours off has potential. My skimmer is probably a tad undersized (it's a Bubble Magus rated for 85g and my total water volume is right at 85-90g).
 
Interesting"¦"¦looking at the charts from Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration. It does appear you can have too good a skimmer and remove a lot of the bacteria the coral feed on.

ScreenShot2011-11-01at114508AM.jpg


Non-skimmed tanks are far closer to being like a natural reef in bacteria count. Maybe skimming partime or using a less efficient skimmer might have benefits. It would be interesting to see the results a long term test run by someone. I sure wouldn't do it without running GFO at the same time or have a good algae scrubber system to remove phosphates.

Wow. That was a good read. It is apparent by this article that bacteria rates are indeed closer to natural reefs in "passive husbandry." The article also goes into how skimmers only remove certain bacteria and not all. Maybe leaving the skimmer off allows some diversity to be maintained in the bacteria population?
 
Wow. That was a good read. It is apparent by this article that bacteria rates are indeed closer to natural reefs in "passive husbandry." The article also goes into how skimmers only remove certain bacteria and not all. Maybe leaving the skimmer off allows some diversity to be maintained in the bacteria population?

Or with aggressive filtration and carbon dosing. I like aggressive filtration and adding a carbon for a number of reasons. For one, you reduce nutrients in the process and keep bacterial counts reasonably high. Without a carbon source, you can reduce filtration to get counts higher, but to keep nutrients low, feeding would need to be a bit less. I see this as important for a few reasons in itself. Well fed corals have been shown to have faster tissue growth, and under some conditions, faster skeletal growth even. Other studies have found resistance to bleaching, or even increased ability to recover from disease and bleaching in certain corals. We know the food inputs into our systems fall well shy of the food densities found in natural reefs, so, anything we can do to get closer to these numbers seems likely to have at least some benefit. However, inorganic nutrients counter many of these benefits, so, to balance this, it seems that here needs to be aggressive filtration, in addition to increased food input. Bacteria is great, but not all corals consume bacteria, in a mixed system, I think there should be a focus on a broader food supply. So for me, feeding more, combined with aggressive filtration seems more desirable than limiting filtration and feeding less than you could with more aggressive filtration.

Another big reason I see to feed more is metal turnover. We know there are excessive trace metals in our systems, and we know these are shown to cause various negative effects. Feeing more,with more aggressive filtration helps to maintain a nutrient input, to drive bacteria and algae with can tie up these nutrients and then the aggressive filtration helps to remove these organisms from the systems, along with the undesirable substances. So, to me that's another potential plus, rather than just cutting back on filtration.

Also the skimmer does other things, such as help with gas exchange. And I found generally I have better results when I keep things consistent. My tank does better when I change out carbon more often, it does better when I do water changes more frequently etc...
In a underfed tank, I certainly believe that turning off the skimmer for a while will help certain organisms. However, I believe that feeding more often and filtering more aggressively will provide even better results.

That was certainly he case in my tank. I spent years cutting back on feeding trying to keep nutrient levels low and really always struggled. Now I feed a ton, filter a ton and things just thrive, I don't have algae or nutrient issues and I'm enjoying the hobby much more. We all talk about stability, but i think most of us don't get what that means. I've come to the conclusion that what stability means, is a stable ecosystem, with a stable food chain. This is a result of stable food input and stable filtration. Feeding less, less often for example, IME destabilizes the system as the microscopic world, which drives the stability of our systems, needs that stable food input to establish a stable microenviorment. It's what we can't see that provides stability to the system. Reducing filtration may help in some situations, but IMO there are more effective ways to accomplish the same goals.



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I tend to agree but, that still leaves the issue of only selective bacteria being skimmed. That would lead to a skewed bacteria population. There is, according to the article, a maximum % of bacteria that can be skimmed. Does that matter? I don't know. For now, in your tank, apparently not.
 
I tend to agree but, that still leaves the issue of only selective bacteria being skimmed. That would lead to a skewed bacteria population. There is, according to the article, a maximum % of bacteria that can be skimmed. Does that matter? I don't know. For now, in your tank, apparently not.

Why do you think selective bacteria being skimmer is an issue? If there is bacteria in the water column, then that is a potential food source for corals; unless there is a reason to beloved corals can't consume that particular bacteria? So, I think that the purpose of shutting down the skimmer was to increase carbon and therefore bacteria in the water? So, it seems this can be accomplished without shutting down the skimmer. Regardless, I think even of homogeneity is an issue, bacterial populations IME are prone to changes due to slight perturbations. I tend to think adding a bacterial culture, shifting parameters a bit etc... Should help maintain more heterogeneity (whether or not that's useful I don't know).

Still, the other potential issue to having an unskimmable population is that the tied up nutrients aren't being removed. Really though if the population is not skimmable, it's because the surface proteins are not amphiphillic enough. The bacteria is still mortal however and once the cells die, they will begin to lyse releasing protein into the water column which should be largely amphiphillic. So, much of this should be exported via skimming, GAC etc... The rest should largely be consumable by more heterotrophic bacteria. So, it seems to me that we have a cycle that keeps nutrients locked up, provides a potential food source and is relative self regulating (assuming carbon is not overdosed and inorganic nutrients are not allowed to get out of control).






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BTW we have sort of shifted towards carbon dosing as a result of the article. Carbon dosing is very related to this topic, as the bacteria is carbon limited. Adding food can also add organic carbon though and turning off the skimmer can reduce removal etc... So the concepts are all related and I believe can all produce similar results. Although the nutrient pathways will vary a bit. The total potential organic carbon in the system is still a function of input though.


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I finally installed a pH probe a few days ago. So far, pH hasn't dropped below 7.94 during the evening....

MH+VHO hours: >=8.3
VHO only hours: >=8.2
Evening (no skimmer): >=7.94
 
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Good thread, as I started doing this myself. But, I am running the skimmer on 6 hour stints, with the same objective of having it off during the night for coral feeding, 12 am - 6 am. I thought that it would have less fluctuations doing 6 hour stints.
 
Many skimmerless tanks have better polyp extension and growth rates.

How do you know that?

As noted earlier oxygenation particularly at night when photsynthesis stops would be a concern . Why remove a source of oxygenation when nightime hypoxia is most likely. I'm not clear on why you think corals feed at night more than during the day, either.


 
Many skimmerless tanks have better polyp extension and growth rates.

How do you know that?

As noted earlier oxygenation particularly at night when photsynthesis stops would be a concern . Why remove a source of oxygenation when nightime hypoxia is most likely. I'm not clear on why you think corals feed at night more than during the day, either.



It seems that polyp extension happens more at night. I thought that this is how they feed. I'm probably wrong, though. :)

I tried shutting the skimmer down at night about the same time I was feeding heavily. I quickly found out my tank was no where near low nutrients (despite 0-0.03 phosphates and 0 nitrates) and had a bloom of bubble algae and to a lesser extent hair. I, now, employ many common methods to export nutrients and run all of them 24/7. It'll be a while if ever before I get to worry about too clean water. :)

Just bringing this up to stress the importance of knowing your tank and it's requirements. they are all different.
 
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