slow dose 2 part vs. Ca reactor

Change in salinity from 2 part is so small, it would take a long time to have any affect imo.

Both methods work great.
DIY is really cheap like mentioned. About a dollar a gallon. However, a calcium reactor imo is just as cheap for me.

The advantage is the amount of dosing. If you have an auto doser, it can malfunction dosing a ton in your tank nuking it. Calcium reactor really can't overdose if you have a controller. If the controller fails, then it just shuts off. Same with the electricity.

I test my tank every 2 weeks now and my alk is dead on 9 and my calcium is always 425ish. I was dosing almost a cup of calcium mix a day and alot of baking soda too. It got really old.

My recommendation is the following.

SPS Tanks > 75 gallon, I'd get a calcium reactor if your tank is getting 50% full. Otherwise use 2 part. Reactor is going to set you back 400 dollars plus.

All other tanks, you need to determine your calcium needs. If you don't dose for 2 days and it drops more then 1 to 2 dkh per day, I'd invest in one. Stability is a huge factor in keeping corals.
 
I have used two parts for going on 5 years now.....first Kent and now Randy's. I have had good results with 2 parts but have thought several times about getting a Ca reactor. The latest when I was planning my latest upgrade. I looked long and hard at the pros/cons of reactors and to be honest didn't really see any significant advantages in using one(possibly the addition of strontium). I also saw that either method can "malfunction" whether it be due to user error or in much less likely scenarios by equipment malfunction.

The deciding factors for me were three fold:
1) A good quality dosing pump is less than half what it costs to set up a good reactor.
2) The new larger media that is being recommended now is very expensive, more expensive than the ingredients in Randy's two part.
3) The most important is that I am allready comfortable with using a two part and can adjust levels intuitively without really thinking about it. I would have to learn to use a reactor. I really don't want to learn to use something on an established population of corals that I have spent years aquiring that can wipe out my tank through improper use.

The bottom line is either method will produce outstanding results. Most seasoned spser's will vote for the reactor but there are a few around that have been using two part's for years with equally impressive outcomes.

Chris
 
WOW..I really appreciate the informative posts guys.

I have a 210g reef that has only been setup here (I bought used system complete) for 6 months now. I've added a few acros recently to test the waters. They seem to be doing well. I want a more automated setup than daily manual dosing. I would like the tank to eventually be ~75% SPS.

Are the medical dosing pump malfunctions common? I assumed this would be a pretty rock solid piece of equipment...
 
Mike O'Brien-
I did finally find some reference to the increase in salinity when using the 2-part systems. But I have been using 2-parts for over 2 years, and I check my salinity about every couple weeks, and I've never noticed it before. I do a water change once a month, so I suppose that keeps everything in check. But you are right, so anyone using 2-parts might a least keep it in mind.

jay24k and fishdoc11-
what sort of malfunctions are you referring to with the auto-doser. I'm having trouble thinking of how a peristaltic pump would fail (I mean I can see at some point it will quit working and fail 'off' but how will it fail 'on'). I dont mean this in a confrontational sense, but honestly would like to know what sorts of problems I should look for.

To me (and this might just be because I have never set up a reactor before), there is more chance for the multiple pumps, CO2 tank and regulator, etc of a Ca reactor to fail. I know I have read a couple of threads in the past about CO2 tanks cauing tank crashes. But these are probably stupid arguments, because properly set-up and maintained, probably neither should fail or so many people would be using either method.

As you say fishdoc, without a doubt most seasoned SPSer's will recommend the reactor. But this is also partly due to the issues in cost with store bought 2-part systems. Now that more and more poeple are using the home-made 2-parts, you can see many more threads starting of people using these methods. If I had to dose store bought, like B-ionic, I think it would cost me around $300 per year to dose what I need (learning to use a reactor wouldn't seem so bad after a couple years of paying that sort of price). But as it stands I am going to pay more like around $30 for the home-made ingredients for the year.
 
I also saw that either method can "malfunction" whether it be due to user error or in much less likely scenarios by equipment malfunction.
Click to expand...

I guess I should have stated a Ca reactor is actually more likely to malfunction...typically with a cheap regulator or clogged up media. I have never read about a peristaltic pump malfunctioning. Either way user error is much more likely(running out of CO2 or improperly setting pump or improperly mixing solution etc...). Also I am assuming ANYTHING can malfunction and that is a big assumption based on my semi paranoid mind. Especially when it comes to my tank:)

Chris
 
I think any equipment properly maintained will have no issues usually. I've heard of dosing pumps failing causing more to enter the tank then normal. I'm not sure what types.

Reactors can fail too but imo that is why you get a controller.

I think both work very well however I like the reactors because of the sheer amount I have to dose. I didn't want to drop 500 on a reactor so I did the 2 part. I got tired of dosing daily and bought a CR because of it.
 
I don't recall hearing many faulty regulator stories. I have a tunze regulator and it's no more money then any other's. I don't see regulator quality being much of a problem. Possibly more with the controller and the probe. I don't use a controller, just a monitor. I agree there is more to a reactor, so there is more of a chance of user error.
Also I and alot of others are still using crushed coral for a media, you can't get much cheaper then that. I do pay more for a good quality dolomite though.
 
I've heard of dosing pumps failing causing more to enter the tank then normal. I'm not sure what types.
Click to expand...

You are referring to the switch on autotopoff systems malfunctioning I assume...not peristaltic pumps, correct?

I don't recall hearing many faulty regulator stories.
Click to expand...

I was basing my comments on a conversation I had with a reputible CR manufacturer about known failures with ceartain regulators and their CR's FWIW:)

Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7408948#post7408948 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jay24k
Reactors can fail too but imo that is why you get a controller.
Click to expand...
Bingo.
IMO - on smaller tanks I'd think excess CO2 could be more a problem [smaller water volume it's acting on] - but I wouldn't consider one without a controller. I've heard a couple stories and IMO it's not worth the risk.

Like the reason I didn't put my osmolator running top-up through a kalk reactor [skimmer goes nuts would mean excess kalk in tank] ... there are concerns to every system, but IMO 2-part with a dosing pump is pretty safe.

So much of this discussion, IMO, depends on how large a tank and how heavily stocked with stony coral.
Mixed tanks, smaller tanks - IMO the reactor would be nice but not necessary. A big water volume, corals that have grown for a year [frags don't suck up the Ca/Alk like mature colonies, nowhere even close] ... a Ca Rx makes a lot more sense. Bring 200g system volume up 2 dKh vs. 75g is a big difference - and scale might eventually cause problems with huge water volume + 2part [or most costs].

I'm at year 3 dosing 2-part on my 58, and while I've been tempted by a Ca Rx ... just doesn't seem worth the expense, with DIY 2-part [heck, the 4g buckets of B-ionic aren't too bad, given LFS trade-in credit ... 4 frags for 4g of each part is acceptable :)].
Of course, I toast Randy and his 2-part regularly ... as it's dirt cheap, effective, and a great DIY.
 
I do "2-part" additives on my 400 gal and have never had Ca and alk levels remain more stable than ever before. Using a Litermeter III small amounts are dosed very frequently, like every 6 minutes. As a result the additives (I use sodium carbonate/ baked baking soda for the alk part) cause NO change in pH.

There is a slight risk of pump failure, but the main risk is a leaking paristaltic tube if you don't change the tubing often enough. By placing the pump at a level above the sump there can never be overdosing due to pump or tubing failure. A failure would result in no dosing rather than overdosing.

It is well established that calcium reactors cause a slight depression in pH compared to what it would be without the reactor. This is also very unlikely to be a problem in most systems. My tank always tends to run low however with pH of about 7.9 to 8.0. This is likely due to higher than normal CO2 levels in the house from inadequate ventillation. Ventillation in the room cannot be increased cheaply or easily.

My biggest problem is watching the levels of the additives in the reservoirs. I use salt buckets and mix up about 6 gal of each at a time. It's a simple matter to see if the bucket is getting low or not, I just have to remember to check periodically. The same would go for checking the CO2 tank on a reactor.

As far as salinity drift over time, that can happen. It can happen with any tank however. Salt is removed by skimming and by salt spray. Water changes might not be in exactly the same amount in as out. No matter what you have to check salinity levels periodically and make adjustments. That is no different with the 2-parts. If my salinity is just a bit high then I replace some of the saltwater with fresh when I do a water change. If it is a bit low I add a little saltwater to replace evaporation instead of fresh. It's not rocket science.

As far as ionic drift over time, that is essentially eliminated by using a mix of mag chloride and mag sulphate for the mag component instead of just the mag sulphate (epsom salt). I have a bag of the dead sea Mag Flake salt that will last me a couple of years.

Right now my corals aren't so big that they require alot of additives. Even if the demand went up 10 fold though it could still easily be accomplished with the 2-part additive. With the DIY 2-part additives the cost balance sheet is now very different than with commercial products and it is a much more cost-effective option.

I'm not claiming the 2-part is better, but a calcium reactor no longer has any clear advantage so it all comes down to individual preference.

Allen
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7407525#post7407525 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jay24k

The advantage is the amount of dosing. If you have an auto doser, it can malfunction dosing a ton in your tank nuking it. Calcium reactor really can't overdose if you have a controller. If the controller fails, then it just shuts off. Same with the electricity.
Click to expand...

This is NOT true...a doser cannot malfunction to dose extra....it is a pump that if it fails will simply not pump, it is fail safe. The only way it can malfuction is by operator error. This can occur if you remove the lines from the pump while the pump/additive are elevated above the tank. This will then cause the additives to siphon into the tank. If you dont remove the lines from the pump, the pump will keep the lines pinched and not allow any solution to flow. I happend to remove my lines once and I dumped two bran new gallons of additive into my 75g....what a mess it made, but I will never be stupid enough to do that again.


Other than that, using a 2-part dosing pump is a GREAT alternative to a Ca RX. Infact I really see no point in messing witha Ca RX unless you have the money to burn on one. The 2 part doser is so simple and so easy to adjust its not even funny. You can dial those pumps in with the touch of a button, no counting bubbles or worrying about effluent PH, or worrying about your Ca RX malfuctioning and melting your media.....I would say the Ca RX is MUCH more likely to nuke your tank than the dual doser IMO. Especially if your not using a solenoid and a ph controller....both which increase the cost of a Ca RX by a large margin.
 
I think you guys are getting way to deep on this issue :)

I stated both negatives about both and both work very well.

If 2 part is a pain for you to do, then get a reactor. IMO, there is not one bonus to using each except for the amount of time you want to spend. Dumping in calcium/baking soda daily for my loaded sps tank was way too time consuming. At one point I was dosing about 2 to 3 tablespoons of baking soda a day and almost a cup of calcium mix. That's the only reason I went to a reactor.

I could of went to an auto doser but I got tired of making the mix. Now I dump media in every 6 months or so and forget about it again.
 
Jay I really think you make running a Ca rx sound a bit simpler than it is. They require maintenance just like anything else. You also have to adjust the bubble count as your tanks needs change (which they do). My only point is a Ca Rx is not as set and forget as many make it sound. Neither is the dosing method for that matter....they both need some tweeking occasionally. Both are easy to tweak once they are dialed in as well. Both will work quite well, but I definitely see the dual doser as the far cheaper option. The cost of filling the c02 alone is more expensive than it costs me to make my 2 part....I probably would spend $10 a year on diy 2 part. You would spend more than that just in media, not to mention the $10-$15 it costs to replace the co2. Now in the scheme of things, neither is expensive compared to other things in this hobby, but there is no way running a Ca Rx is cheaper than running diy 2 part...
 
I'm with jay24k. After the initial investment in my MTC Pro Cal reactor my only cost is crushed coral and replacing a CO2 cylinder about once a year. With good equipment, once it is set up the only thing you have to do is watch the media dissolve over time until time for replacement and be sure your CO2 tank is not empty. That is about $30 a year for a 600 gallon reef. For me this is just super easy as once a good reactor is set up and running there really is nothing to worry about. At least not any more than anything else one is adding to their tank. Making them sound so difficult is not helpful in the discussion as they really should be simple to use. Again, good luck either way with your choice...
 
The cost is so similiar. I have a 10lb tank that I haven't had to refill. Both are cheap. Perhaps the reactor might be a little more but maybe a couple bucks tops a year if that.

There is no need to adjust the bubble count if you have a controller. All you need to adjust is the output. Every 2 days, up or lower it depending on what your test shows. After about 3 to 5 times of tinkering, it is done.

I have not had to make a single adjustment to my reactor in 2 months. All I do is feed, water changes every 2 to 3 weeks, and clean the glass.

If doing 2 part doesn't bother you time consuming wise, then by all means go that route. It's cheap and very effective. I am a busy person and I forget to dose till the evening. Kids, work, etc, keeps me busy.

In reality though, a reactor is very simple. If you don't have a controller, bubble count can be a pain imo. I set mine somewhat high. When the controller kicks on, it drops the ph fairly quick in the reactor.

Some do recommend matching the bubble count still but I'm too lazy :) If they had an automatic glass cleaner for sale, I'd probably buy that too.
 
If they had an automatic glass cleaner for sale, I'd probably buy that too.

Heck, I'd buy that before a bought a reactor. Probably would trade in my dual doser a the same time. ;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7411339#post7411339 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jay24k
There is no need to adjust the bubble count if you have a controller. All you need to adjust is the output. Every 2 days, up or lower it depending on what your test shows. After about 3 to 5 times of tinkering, it is done.
...
If doing 2 part doesn't bother you time consuming wise, then by all means go that route.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt that calcium reactors can be that easy, but you make 2-part dosing out to be more time consuming than a reactor and it is not- not if it is done "right". I only have to do anything to my dosing system about once a month. I check calcium and alk levels about every 2 to 4 weeks and if they are ok, which they generally are, I do nothing with the doser. Otherwise I turn up or down the rate a bit. The additives that I mix in salt buckets last me 6 to 8 weeks. Then I have to mix up more which takes me 10 to 15 minutes for both. So, at most I spend about 10 min per month dealing with the 2-part doser. Hardly time-consuming.

Allen
 
Al-
you are right and that's the point I have been trying to make. With an auto-doser it's just NOT time-consuming at all.

And you have a huge tank.

On the other extreme, I have a relatively small tank (75G), but it is packed full of SPS frags and colonies and clams. The Ca demand is EXTREMELY high in my tank. But I make up 6 gallons at a time as well, and this should probably last me close to 3 months. I finally got hold of 2 1/2 G jugs that I stuck under the stand. And so besides making up new batches every few months, I'll need to refill these jugs every 4-6 weeks. hardly a lot of work compared to the other things I do to maintain this thing.
 
I think its pretty clear that either way will work well as long as you understand what the issues are with each individual system. If you know what you are doing neither should take much time or much $ in the long run. All of the poor outcomes from either system that is chosen IMO comes from not understanding what one is trying to accomplish and not knowing how to ensure you are doing it correctly, or, just not monitoring what you are doing correctly. Vigilance is the key. I still think for a bigger system a calcium reactor would be slightly easier to deal with but maybe that is just me. Good Luck with either.
 
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