slow to get color.

[Wiskey]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7207799#post7207799 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by G-money

IF phosphate is the "bigger factor", I need to know why!
You can't drop bombs like that without giving us something.

Sorry, I was unaware I was dropping a bomb.

In order to do a total phospate test everything in your tank (living things definitally included) would have to be put into boiling acid. This is not a test hobbiests want to do, certinally not often, so we are happy with testing our water for ortho-phospate. The problem is that bacteria love ortho-phospate, and take it up when it is available leaving it undetectable to tests like Salifert unless there is a major amount. On top of all this you have the compounding problem of bacterial fluxing, which is required BTW for denitrfication and releaces phospate into the water colum only to be taken back up by diffrent bacteria and I am sure the zoox get some too.

Nitrate is far easer to test, and if you are letting nutreants build up enough to have a bunch of nitrate, usually you have a bunch of phospate too, so nitrate got the bad rap for coral browning in hobbyest litrature.

Zoox definitally take up phospate as showen here:

From this article
http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/l_ho_030898.html

Zooxanthellae also removes phosphorous in form of phosphate from

corals, benefiting both coral and zooxanthellae. There are several

experiments done to indicate phosphate removal by zooxanthellae does occur.

Test have shown that ahermatypic corals (those that do not contain

zooxanthellae) excrete significantly more phosphate then do corals

hermatypic corals. (Yonge and Nicholls)

In a separate test, Tridacnas within a sealed container depleted

all the phosphorous within the water, while Spondylus, a clam genus lacking

zooxanthellae, did not. (Younge)

Zooxanthellae need phosphate (like true plants) to grow and

reproduce. Thus, it is self evident zooxanthellae benefit from the

phosphate corals produce as waste products.

Corals likewise benefit. CaCO3 precipitation can be shown to be

inhibited by organic phosphate. In recent years phosphate has been shown to

be a major inhibitor on the surface of crystals.

Aragonite, the crystal form of CaCO3, is therefore inhibited by

phosphate and deposition of calcium carbonate as the coral's skeletal matrix

(in form of aragonite in corals) is greatly hindered.

So, to summarize, because the zooxanthellae actively remove

phosphate from within and surrounding the coral, calcification is enhanced,

and corals, by theory and through observation, grow at increased rates.

I remember reading that Zoox can make their own nitrigen (form of nitrate) but need to take up phospate for rapid, uncontroled growth (zoox are brown, so this causes coral browning), but I can't recall where at the moment, and I am at work so I can't really look right now. I will try to find the article later tonight.

Whiskey

 

[Wiskey]

Here is something else:

Nitrate has often been implicated as a causative agent for failure in
reef aquariums. However, if the truth be known, there has never been
any conclusive evidence for this. As mentioned above, nitrate levels
of 40 ppm have been measured in aquaria with large stony coral
growths. It would safe to say that maintaining a low level of nitrate
is still desirable, but one need not become fanatical about it. Where
nitrate could still pose a problem though, is in undesirable algae
growth.

From this article:
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~delbeek/corals2.html

Whiskey

 

[TMNZ]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7207930#post7207930 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blide
I agree... That sinularia is not helping your SPS.:spin2:

So this could be the problem then.
Are there any threads discussing this?

Do you think this in its self would be the cause, or this and other factors.

 

[G-money]

It could well be the Sinularia. Do you run carbon, ozone or UV? If not, I'd try it. The thing with allelopathic chemicals is that they'll often do worse things to stonies than make them go brown...like recede, so I don't know if that's all the matter.



Wiskey,

You can indeed test total free phosphate without boiling everything in your tank in acid - it just takes multiple acidification steps which can be done out of the tank. If it's biomass, it's only a resevoir and doesn't really "count" (yet).
FWIW, for every article posted claiming PO4 as the culprit, I can find at leats 2 that say the same for nitrate. The zoox can get their nitrogen from the coral in the form of excreted waste - usually ammonia. But they can get it from the water just as well. Phosphate is much more "wanted" by bacteria and algae, since it's limiting. And as far as phosphate, you're likely going to have a significant algae bloom before the corals start to go brown. "Undetectable" phosphate isn't enough to do this. I know that much from experience.

I won't hijack any further here, though, since I think TMNZ is on a different track...

...and the "bomb" was facetious.

 

[Wiskey]

I did not think this was TMNZ's problem.

I was just answering a question Jiggy asked.

If the coral can get their nitragen from other sorces (plentiful sources in all aquarims) than water born nitrate, shouldn't it stand to reason that some people's coral being brown, and others not has more to do with something else?

Whiskey

 

[kirstenk]

If this were my tank I would:

1. Get the Magnesium up as JB suggested.
2. Get some sort of carbon source for the BioDigest!! That Bac needs to eat.
3. Slowly increase the light period. 6 hours is pretty weak unless you have an extreme nutrient poor tank.

 

[kirstenk]

4. Run Carbon.

 

[TMNZ]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7209722#post7209722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kirstenk
If this were my tank I would:

1. Get the Magnesium up as JB suggested.
2. Get some sort of carbon source for the BioDigest!! That Bac needs to eat.
3. Slowly increase the light period. 6 hours is pretty weak unless you have an extreme nutrient poor tank.

1. ok will get that up, how much can i do in a day?
2. Like what? Vodka? any thing else?
3. Ok up to what 8 hours?
4. will add this also.

And if these are the problems, how long before you see color? a month?

Do you think i should take that green sinulara and the other leather out?

Thanks for all the help guys.

T

 

[TMNZ]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7209531#post7209531 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by G-money
It could well be the Sinularia. Do you run carbon, ozone or UV? If not, I'd try it.

I won't hijack any further here, though, since I think TMNZ is on a different track...

...and the "bomb" was facetious.

don't worry about hijacking the thread, still sort of it the same area.

And no i don't run carbon, uv or ozone. I do have a 50mg ozone unit there but its not in use.

Thanks

 

[marilynrn711]

I started the prodibio plan 2 wks ago and unbelievable how my color has changed. My torte is now a brilliant blue / green instead of a pale blue. My tank is also much clearer.


I also started dosing Pohls CV and the amino acids from zeovit.


I am going to post new pics this weekend. My camera is not good and difficult to get accurate colors.

 

[kirstenk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7209959#post7209959 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TMNZ
1. ok will get that up, how much can i do in a day?

Raise no more than 100ppm daily.

2. Like what? Vodka? any thing else?

Your safest option is Prodibio Bioptim.

3. Ok up to what 8 hours?

Can't answer this. You need to increase slowly and watch the corals. I saw you are close to bulb replacement. Go to the lighting forum here on RC and click on Sanjay's thread, its stickied. From there you can check you ballast and performance on different bulbs. A 14K may be the ticket.

4. will add this also.

Change it monthly.

After looking at your pics, rereading the thread, I would also suggest you feed a little more.

Then watch your corals. They will tell you the direction you need to take more than us. If they don't improve, then cut feeding first, continue to increase lighting, etc..

And if these are the problems, how long before you see color? a month?

Depends, I have seen improvement in 18 days, but by a month you should have a good idea.

Do you think i should take that green sinulara and the other leather out?

The carbon will help. If no improvements are seen at a month, then I would.

Thanks for all the help guys.

I hope it helps. Seems to me you are close. Good Luck!

T [/B]

 

[TMNZ]

Thanks kirstenk

Yes i did forget to add that i do use bioptium.

Do you follow the instructions to the t.

Bioptium needs to be added in much larger amounts compared to biodigest 1 amp per 1000ltr.

I just add one of each.

 

[kirstenk]

Do you follow the instructions to the t.

I dose 1/1. I also dose Vodka daily. So, maybe get some more Vodka.

Check into the Pohl's CV and amino acids from Zeo. A cheaper source are products from www.polyplabs.com Maybe they have a dealer in New Zealand.

The more you say the more I think your corals are showing the "dull" colors that they can in a nutrient poor system. So....easy on the lights!!! Foods/amino acids and fish feedings first. Good Luck.