"smart" charger?

[BeanAnimal]

There are lots of ways to look at it...

but yes charge/discharge cycles take life away from the batteries. However, they die a slow death just being maintained as well. Perfect exmaple (the car batteries). Most people don't bother to replace them every 24 months, even though they should. By the 2 year mark, they have lost a tremendous amount of their capacity. You just don't know it becuase they still have enough juice to start the car

So yes, you can get 5 years out of a good cell, you just need to know that at the 5 year mark there will be a significant amount of decay on the power curve

Most reputable manufacturers can provide you with a power curve showing the life of the cell and it's expected output.

Carefull maintenance on a wet cell can extend it's life to some extent. AGM/SLA cells are another story. When you see them start to swell, that means they are going downhill rather quickly (not that swelling of a wet cell is any different).

 

[BeanAnimal]

We use battery arrays not only in some underground mining machines (like shown above), but also in "golf cart" like transportation.

For example http://www.irwincar.com/irwinmine/personal-carrier.asp

shows some typical applications... notice the Horsepower ratings! These things will put a golf cart to shame on runtime and hauling capacity. Then again, you don't want to buy the replacement batteries, they may cost a bit more than you expected

 

[orlenz]

I've been thinking about doing this also, but if it will only run my main pump for a few hours, I don't see myself spending $200 plus when I can just buy a couple of those Penn Plax battery operated air pumps for less than $50

 

[David M]

Thanks for the info folks, I think I have a handle on how to set this up. Now I'd like to refocus a little. Let me explain my application, I am a clownfish breeder. While I'm not there yet I could easily see $30,000 + worth of fish in the growout system. So a few bucks (<$500?) to set this up and the occasional battery replacemnet cost is negligable if I protect the fish from massive die off during a power outage. So what is the downside of doing this, if any? Right now I am thinking of going with a 5 amp charger and maybe 4/ 80 amp hour deep cycle batteries. It's just to get through short term outages, long term I'd use a generator. With 5 amps I could run all the air I need, the main recirc pump and keep the biofilter going. Is there some reason I would not want to do this? I'm supposing there would be some loss of efficiency and my utility bills may be higher, but again we are talking about a business, not a hobby, and $30K worth of fish to boot

 

[BeanAnimal]

IF I were you and this is a business, I would invest in a generator with an automatic transfer switch and skip the whole UPS thing.

You can get a 7kw generac unit that runs on LP or Natural Gas installed for around 3k. If you want to do it yourself your are looking at 2k.

Your wasting your time with batteries and the generator will pay for itself the first time you lose power, as well as pay for itself in battery cost after a few years.

 

[xrunner1234]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7827817#post7827817 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by David M
Thanks for the info folks, I think I have a handle on how to set this up. Now I'd like to refocus a little. Let me explain my application, I am a clownfish breeder. While I'm not there yet I could easily see $30,000 + worth of fish in the growout system. So a few bucks (<$500?) to set this up and the occasional battery replacemnet cost is negligable if I protect the fish from massive die off during a power outage. So what is the downside of doing this, if any? Right now I am thinking of going with a 5 amp charger and maybe 4/ 80 amp hour deep cycle batteries. It's just to get through short term outages, long term I'd use a generator. With 5 amps I could run all the air I need, the main recirc pump and keep the biofilter going. Is there some reason I would not want to do this? I'm supposing there would be some loss of efficiency and my utility bills may be higher, but again we are talking about a business, not a hobby, and $30K worth of fish to boot

You need to know the power consumption and the runtime that you will need/want. From there, the UPS can be sized.
Or get a generator like Bean suggested.

 

[David M]

You can get a 7kw generac unit that runs on LP or Natural Gas installed for around 3k. If you want to do it yourself your are looking at 2k.

That would really amaze me, I happen to be liscensed electrical contractor and have never seen a 7kw generator WITH an auto transfer switch for $2K :eek1: I will definately have the generator but the transfer switch is the problem. I guess I'll shop around a bit online but I think that switch is going to be very pricey

I certainly see your point and that would be ideal, but I think I can do something NOW for a few hundered bucks and worry about the big picture later when (if) this actually makes money

 

[BeanAnimal]

David I sell them A generac 7kw unit with a 100A indoor ATS is right around the 2k mark from a dozen online vendors. The ATS is prewired to replace breakers in the service panel. To move to a Service Entrance NEMA rated unit will cost another $600 ($1000 for a 200A SE NEMA rated switch).

ATS functions are not to bad, weekly exercise, setable idle time before going offline, etc.

 

[David M]

Ok I need to get a look at those, I assume www.generac?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yeah you can find the info there... but just google 7kw or 12kw generac and you will find a lot of dealers. Home depot sells them at a few bucks above cost... as do most online vendors. BTW that is the delivered price. Like I said, I sell them. Sadly my cost is about what the idiots online sell them for. (nothing like drop shipping stuff for a $50 profit on a $2K item). Freakin online idiots. HD is no better, they take a loss on the things just to be able to over them and keep people in the store.

 

[David M]

We'll be a freakin' monkeys uncle... you don't lie I found the whole package just as you said including an 8 ckt disribution panel for $2029, with FREE shipping I'd have never guessed that was even possible, thanks :rollface: I didn't notice if that included a fuel tank though, gotta go back and check.

So I guess the big question is are they any good? In St Thomas we mostly installed Onan and in the last few years Kabuta was getting popluar. Myself I just had the water cooled portable Honda 6500, man was that thing quiet. My neighbor asked if I had solar :lol:

 

[David M]

Ahh, now I see. Natural gas or LP. The natural gas option seems rediculous for anything other than a short term interuption of service and the point of the generator is to survive long term outages. It's not unreasonable to think that here in So Cal that might just be associated with a fairly serious earthquake, which means natural gas is the first thing we'll lose. So now I'd be looking at the LP conversion, a storage tank and delivery service. Somehow I knew it couldn't be so simple

 

[BeanAnimal]

They are not to bad noise wise. They have other higher end models (quietsource) that are nearly silent (as far as gensets go) and water cooled. They cost quite a bit more.

These are certainly not something that you want to show a 3000 hour duty cycle a year... but they are all that most small business or home need.

Why is the natural gas ridiculous? The 7kw model uses just over 100 cubic feet an hour at full load. That is about $1 an hour. With the price of gasoline, I am not sure I would want to run a gas or fuel genset at all.

Yes, if you feel that natural gas would be interupted, then you may want to look at LP. LP isn't so bad, except you have to buy they stuff up front (just like you would fuel).

Dude of the natural gas goes away and I have no power.... I think the last thing I am going to be worried about is my fish and my steaks. Look at it this way. If you had a gas/fuel genset, you would need one big mofo tank to store the fuel. If it is gas, you need to keeo aditives in it so it does not sour. Once you burn through your supply, if things are that bad, there will be no fuel to replace it with.

Bean

 

[dantodd]

In the northridge quake a lot of folks lost gas service much longer than electricity. A large propane tank would probably be best IMO. The fuel will be there when you need it and takes much less maintenance than gasoline/diesel. Tough to beat the pricing of gasonline gensets though. If you Always keep your cars topped up then you have a decent supply of fuel when it becomes important. The 40gal our 2 cars hold will go a long way. I wouldn't worry about auto-switching personally as I will be able to get to the house in almost any emergency that matters enough to need the generator but isn't so severe that the fish become a very low priority.

 

[David M]

Certainly all good points, as a hobbyist I always figured that an earthquake strong enoung to damage my tanks would leave me with bigger problems than fish to worry about. But now it's differant, those fish are destined to become my livelyhood. In St T we went 4 months without power after Hurricane Marilyn, that is an experience I won't ever forget. OTOH if power is disrupted for some non devastating reason it would be nice to save the fish. Hard to imagine an air cooled generator that is "reasonably quiet" but since I've already been surprised about the price I guess I won't question it

 

[BeanAnimal]

About 65-70db at 20 feet

I think the 7meter (seems to be standard measurement distance for this type of device) is a bit less (in the 62-65 db range). Most galone models in the 7-12 KW size come in at about 76db Which is A LOT louder.

 

[David M]

I wouldn't worry about auto-switching personally as I will be able to get to the house in almost any emergency that matters enough to need the generator but isn't so severe that the fish become a very low priority.

For my display & broodstock tanks I agree, but larval & growout tanks are stocked at levels upwards of 50 fish per gallon. 5 minutes without air would be disasterous :eek1: