Solaris Led lighting systems
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BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Still waiting for one of you onwers to put a kill-a-watt on your unit and report back to us. Also, do ANY of you own or have access to PAR meters?
jnb
Premium Member
my killawatt on the 48 inch Solaris is 401 watts but I already told you that via PM - except I told you 407 but I just looked it up on my log to be sure. 47 watts when all the lights are out - (the fans in the hood run slightly and the pwer supply fans are still spinning and the led on the contoller, etc.....)
there, you have it, now can we abide by this thread maker's request to not beat the heck out details that are fast becoming know to be boring to actual owners, one of which being the thread starter- please. We were going in circles more than we were progressing - is my sense. If you want, you can start your own thread to hard debate to resolve whatever drives you to pursue or convince or whatever interest you.
With respect....
I don't have a par meter - but I do have a t-5 fixture, a MH fixture, and others sitting around. I have three TDS meters, a pinpoint salinity and refractometer so I know what its like to be anal but somehow, I come to this thread to be relieved of all that and just want to share with the other owners and hope others get to know the Solaris results we are experiencing - and my sense is - that I am in the majority in that respect.
there, you have it, now can we abide by this thread maker's request to not beat the heck out details that are fast becoming know to be boring to actual owners, one of which being the thread starter- please. We were going in circles more than we were progressing - is my sense. If you want, you can start your own thread to hard debate to resolve whatever drives you to pursue or convince or whatever interest you.
With respect....
I don't have a par meter - but I do have a t-5 fixture, a MH fixture, and others sitting around. I have three TDS meters, a pinpoint salinity and refractometer so I know what its like to be anal but somehow, I come to this thread to be relieved of all that and just want to share with the other owners and hope others get to know the Solaris results we are experiencing - and my sense is - that I am in the majority in that respect.
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BeanAnimal
Premium Member
And I respected your wishes and did not say anything. Yes I suppose we can ignore the details and just go on being happy and extolling the virtues of these fixtures, real or imaginary.
The only reason I ever said anything was because of the wholly unplausible energy saving numbers reported over and over again by one of the PFO owners, and somewhat defended by others. The statements were made here and other forums and come up in just about any google search for PFO SOLARIS. It [the reported energy savings] was used as a selling point to attract others who would otherwise take the savings as a truthful representation of the energy usage difference. This I feel is a disservice to perspective buyers as well as the manufacturer, thus I said something.
Thank you for making your kill-a-watt readings public, they speak for themselves and give others another tool to use if they seek to calculate the energy usage differences between the PFO LED setup and other lighting technologies.
The discussion here has also gone a long way to illustrating the spectrum differences and opinions regarding UV and how it affects lighting efficiency and heating of the tank or room.
If some of the contributors would have spent less time attacking or changing the subject... the whole experience would have been much less like going to the dentist and much easier to follow.
The patterns in this thread have been the same for nearly 30 pages and the same at other forums where this topic has come up. I am not the only person who has found himself trying to argue logic and facts with "happy owners" who could really care less.
All in all, I think the PFO setup is a step in the right direction and I am glad that those of you who have spent the money are happy with your investment. I see a lot of room for growth in the product, but from all reports PAT seems to be working in that direction and at the same time taking care of customers needs.
I am eager to see Sanjays test results as well as the long term results of your (you current owners) setups and growth after a year or two. I am also eager to see what the real world bulb life and degradation curves turn out like.
Many people are reading these threads in an attempt to decipher the facts fron the fiction and determine if this is the lighting system they need. It is in everybody's best interest to try and keep the facts straight and the misconceptions at a minimum.
Enjoy your fixtures...
The only reason I ever said anything was because of the wholly unplausible energy saving numbers reported over and over again by one of the PFO owners, and somewhat defended by others. The statements were made here and other forums and come up in just about any google search for PFO SOLARIS. It [the reported energy savings] was used as a selling point to attract others who would otherwise take the savings as a truthful representation of the energy usage difference. This I feel is a disservice to perspective buyers as well as the manufacturer, thus I said something.
Thank you for making your kill-a-watt readings public, they speak for themselves and give others another tool to use if they seek to calculate the energy usage differences between the PFO LED setup and other lighting technologies.
The discussion here has also gone a long way to illustrating the spectrum differences and opinions regarding UV and how it affects lighting efficiency and heating of the tank or room.
If some of the contributors would have spent less time attacking or changing the subject... the whole experience would have been much less like going to the dentist and much easier to follow.
The patterns in this thread have been the same for nearly 30 pages and the same at other forums where this topic has come up. I am not the only person who has found himself trying to argue logic and facts with "happy owners" who could really care less.
All in all, I think the PFO setup is a step in the right direction and I am glad that those of you who have spent the money are happy with your investment. I see a lot of room for growth in the product, but from all reports PAT seems to be working in that direction and at the same time taking care of customers needs.
I am eager to see Sanjays test results as well as the long term results of your (you current owners) setups and growth after a year or two. I am also eager to see what the real world bulb life and degradation curves turn out like.
Many people are reading these threads in an attempt to decipher the facts fron the fiction and determine if this is the lighting system they need. It is in everybody's best interest to try and keep the facts straight and the misconceptions at a minimum.
Enjoy your fixtures...
Beenalongtime79
New member
I personally think it is really amazing that corals, both LPS and SPS are growing under these LEDs at what seem to be really good growth rates and heck! you even get to save a little energy while doing it. Even if these bulbs only last for 5 or 6 years (not the 11 years as advertised) with adequate intensity for continuing growth of the corals, you probably break even from the energy savings and bulb replacements by then. It may not be superior right now in many aspects, but people are happy with them and what they are getting for their money and most of these people are seasoned reefkeepers and I certainly would not compare the Solaris to such products like Rios, skilter filters, or Prizm skimmers.
Also, there is also that cool factor with having one of the new toys in reefkeeping that can do all these neat things...
Just let the owners be happy in sharing their newfound experience with this very new and exciting way of lighting their reef aquariums.
Now for your lucky owners, post some pretty pictures for all to see!
Peace,
John H.
Also, there is also that cool factor with having one of the new toys in reefkeeping that can do all these neat things...
Just let the owners be happy in sharing their newfound experience with this very new and exciting way of lighting their reef aquariums.
Now for your lucky owners, post some pretty pictures for all to see!
Peace,
John H.
badpacket
Premium Member
I have a couple of concerns about your Top 10.
9. I would point to this article
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...ess&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=firefox-a[/url]
with interesting data on the revising of White LED lifespans.
Not sure how much Luxeon's are affected, however its a question that should be asked.
Also, potential buyers should really read up on 'binning', or the process by which each LED is checked and graded for color, voltage, etc at the factory. Luxeon have 400 'bins' or categories of LED's. Now I'm not quite sure where in China these systems are manufactured, however as cost is always an issue, and with some of the repeat QA issues we've heard of, I would seriously wonder if my $3500 fixture is using the primo/top-shelf grade LED's or any of the other 399 variety, lower quality type.
PFO should be able to state the bin number on their LED's, this niche market is all about the details, no?
And, how long are they warrantying their LED's for? Considering the binning process and value engineering that takes place everywhere, I want to hear back from many of these people in a year or 18 months when/if LED's start failing.
10.5- This is a little nit-picky, but saying the Manf. is 100% behind his new $3000 light fixture is sort of well, duh? Not having higher than average CS for a product line like this in this niche would be suicidal. Besides, if anyone does some googling on the parts, and the costs in China, the BOM (bill of materials) on these are probably in the $400 area, and quite possibly a bit cheaper.
I think this is probably a good piece of equipment, however some of the cost savings are exactly as Bean has pointed out. Phyiscs, yeah some of us have heard about it..
PFO could step in at any time here and set up a normal MH system and a Solaris, with Killowat, PAR meters, and simple remote temp sensors in large styrofoam cooler boxes for testing.
I'm frankly surprised they haven't done that already considering the technical questions raised here on RC.
I'd like to tinker with a DIY myself this summer, depends what happens in the near term though. However I have no doubt that some company like Octopus will pop up with clones at half the price or less, which will get some real units into the reefosphere.
I'll argue with Bean on occasion, however eBay RO/DI aside the guy's got the scientific and math talent to match up his bark I think a lot of people know that LED is coming or almost here, its just that some of the claims and hype is seemingly overblown or simply unsubstantiated as of yet.
Several $K is not chump change, and its weird how RC sometimes seems so anal in its quest for detail, detail, detail, and other times it just wants to believe so bad.
Albertsons just had 4-packs of some nice 23w CF for $1, I'm going to go buy 4 packs for $4, and run 16 x23w CF's over my tank for a while. They're about equivelent to 75w bulbs in reality, not 100w, so that will be about 1200w of poor lighting equivelent, at ~360w of electricity. I'll spend more on sockets and wiring, but I wonder what will happen, aside from massive algae growth....well I was joking but I need a project this weekend to keep the wife from nagging about the kitchen finishing. Softies, welcome to 2007!
/off-topic
9. I would point to this article
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...ess&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=firefox-a[/url]
with interesting data on the revising of White LED lifespans.
Not sure how much Luxeon's are affected, however its a question that should be asked.
Also, potential buyers should really read up on 'binning', or the process by which each LED is checked and graded for color, voltage, etc at the factory. Luxeon have 400 'bins' or categories of LED's. Now I'm not quite sure where in China these systems are manufactured, however as cost is always an issue, and with some of the repeat QA issues we've heard of, I would seriously wonder if my $3500 fixture is using the primo/top-shelf grade LED's or any of the other 399 variety, lower quality type.
PFO should be able to state the bin number on their LED's, this niche market is all about the details, no?
And, how long are they warrantying their LED's for? Considering the binning process and value engineering that takes place everywhere, I want to hear back from many of these people in a year or 18 months when/if LED's start failing.
10.5- This is a little nit-picky, but saying the Manf. is 100% behind his new $3000 light fixture is sort of well, duh? Not having higher than average CS for a product line like this in this niche would be suicidal. Besides, if anyone does some googling on the parts, and the costs in China, the BOM (bill of materials) on these are probably in the $400 area, and quite possibly a bit cheaper.
I think this is probably a good piece of equipment, however some of the cost savings are exactly as Bean has pointed out. Phyiscs, yeah some of us have heard about it..
PFO could step in at any time here and set up a normal MH system and a Solaris, with Killowat, PAR meters, and simple remote temp sensors in large styrofoam cooler boxes for testing.
I'm frankly surprised they haven't done that already considering the technical questions raised here on RC.
I'd like to tinker with a DIY myself this summer, depends what happens in the near term though. However I have no doubt that some company like Octopus will pop up with clones at half the price or less, which will get some real units into the reefosphere.
I'll argue with Bean on occasion, however eBay RO/DI aside the guy's got the scientific and math talent to match up his bark
I think a lot of people know that LED is coming or almost here, its just that some of the claims and hype is seemingly overblown or simply unsubstantiated as of yet.Several $K is not chump change, and its weird how RC sometimes seems so anal in its quest for detail, detail, detail, and other times it just wants to believe so bad.
Albertsons just had 4-packs of some nice 23w CF for $1, I'm going to go buy 4 packs for $4, and run 16 x23w CF's over my tank for a while. They're about equivelent to 75w bulbs in reality, not 100w, so that will be about 1200w of poor lighting equivelent, at ~360w of electricity. I'll spend more on sockets and wiring, but I wonder what will happen, aside from massive algae growth....well I was joking but I need a project this weekend to keep the wife from nagging about the kitchen finishing. Softies, welcome to 2007!
/off-topic
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
The kill-o-watt is fairly accurate for its price and seems to have a fairly high sampling rate (it must because it "tries" to determine power factor). I never took one apart to see what chip is in it or if it is shunt or triac based (the Cirus CS5461A is popular)... but I would bet it is the same chip used in many digital power billing meters (they are about $2.00 each). FWIW one of my ongoing projects is a CT (current transformer) based measurement system for EACH output on my DIY controller (32 outputs). A PIC micro (well a bank of them) will do the power metering by sampling using a fast ADC and some true RMS math.
Anyway... yes the graphing meter from your utility would be great.. but they don't like to loan them out, esp if they have a lot of voltage spike problems in your area (they don't want the spikes caught on the meters!)
Now as far as "constantly changing according to your settings" the kill-a-watt will certainly measure that with enough accuracy to use the results for power consumption calculations. The load posed to the utility should be rather simple with a pretty nice power factor.
Enjoy the evening guys...
Bean
Anyway... yes the graphing meter from your utility would be great.. but they don't like to loan them out, esp if they have a lot of voltage spike problems in your area (they don't want the spikes caught on the meters!)
Now as far as "constantly changing according to your settings" the kill-a-watt will certainly measure that with enough accuracy to use the results for power consumption calculations. The load posed to the utility should be rather simple with a pretty nice power factor.
Enjoy the evening guys...
Bean
badpacket
Premium Member
Re: Re: Re: Pulse Width Modulation
Re: Re: Re: Pulse Width Modulation
Actually I think there are a number of dimmers out there that are using PWM now, however you are correct that it has heretofore not been normally used in this applicaiton. Yes the PWM does save energy. However I don't know if anyone has actually studied what PWM does to organics that operate by photosynthesis. There are a lot of mechanisms, pathways and feedbacks in the biological world, so its interesting. Many Americans going to Europe with 50hz PAL can occasionally see something 'odd' watching British TV compared to NTSC, but few can explain it.
I'm not saying that there is an actual problem, just that we don't know if pulsing does have an effect, or even if there is an affect on light production/quality within the LED itself. I'd be interested in seeing if there is such a thing as a high-speed PAR meter and if there are differences between 20 Khz+ MH and x hundred hz LEDs.
I wouldn't be surprised if at a low enough level (dim), if there wasn't some sort of interference, start-stop at the biological level. Certain Japanese console games caused a high incidence of seizures in Japan, so there is some relationship.
Total blue sky curious, no data at all the PWM has any affect on photosynthesis at all.
QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8885143#post8885143 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pjf
While PWM is nothing new, it is not generally used in lighting. Many applications still use rheostats and save no electricity. The point that has apparently been lost is the fact that the PWM dimming method in the Solaris saves energy. [/QUOTE]
Re: Re: Re: Pulse Width Modulation
Actually I think there are a number of dimmers out there that are using PWM now, however you are correct that it has heretofore not been normally used in this applicaiton. Yes the PWM does save energy. However I don't know if anyone has actually studied what PWM does to organics that operate by photosynthesis. There are a lot of mechanisms, pathways and feedbacks in the biological world, so its interesting. Many Americans going to Europe with 50hz PAL can occasionally see something 'odd' watching British TV compared to NTSC, but few can explain it.
I'm not saying that there is an actual problem, just that we don't know if pulsing does have an effect, or even if there is an affect on light production/quality within the LED itself. I'd be interested in seeing if there is such a thing as a high-speed PAR meter and if there are differences between 20 Khz+ MH and x hundred hz LEDs.
I wouldn't be surprised if at a low enough level (dim), if there wasn't some sort of interference, start-stop at the biological level. Certain Japanese console games caused a high incidence of seizures in Japan, so there is some relationship.
Total blue sky curious, no data at all the PWM has any affect on photosynthesis at all.
QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8885143#post8885143 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pjf
While PWM is nothing new, it is not generally used in lighting. Many applications still use rheostats and save no electricity. The point that has apparently been lost is the fact that the PWM dimming method in the Solaris saves energy. [/QUOTE]
badpacket
Premium Member
Please. I am not technically an engineer, 'tis true. However I am also not someone who spent the mortgage on a light fixture. The point was, PWM is nothing new, has been used in lighting, and could just as easily have been linked in an advertising manner with Chevy or General Electric washing machines as a high-end fixture maker. Maybe it would be 'good' for more people too know that $0.73 ATTiny microcontrollers and even cheaper ones have done this for years, and it may not be some new fangled technology PFO has borrowed from a reknown, expensive manf.?
If anything, it seems as though some would rather not look at the simple questions posited by Bean and others, because he isn't an engineer ?
I'm sorry if I offended you, PWM wouldn't have been a selling feature to me.
If anything, it seems as though some would rather not look at the simple questions posited by Bean and others, because he isn't an engineer ?
I'm sorry if I offended you, PWM wouldn't have been a selling feature to me.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Pulse Width Modulation
Re: Re: Re: Re: Pulse Width Modulation
There are some resistance based dimmers out there... but even with residential stuff most are becoming triac based.
Bean
Re: Re: Re: Re: Pulse Width Modulation
My concern with PWM over my tank (my DIY moonlights are PWM) is not so much the corals, but the critter with eyes. Just because I can not see the oscillations, does not mean that they can not. Persistance of vision is not something I have ever seen proven for fish. That said, the 60HZ pulse of fluorescent lighting may also be anoying to them. I know it gives me a headache sometimes.
There are some resistance based dimmers out there... but even with residential stuff most are becoming triac based.
Bean
Fishbulb2
New member
Hey July,
A kill-a-watt is a device which reports the actual power used by a device. So for example, if you have a pump that is supposed to be only 40watts, you can actually test it. Often times devices will run higher or lower wattage then they are supposed and the kill-a-watt helps you determine that. Lots of mods that people do to their skimmer impellars for example will decrease the resistance ono the pump and the pump will run at a lower wattage. The kill-a-watt helps people monitor that. It's quite popular with people running larger tanks who suddenly run into expensive power bills. The kill-a-watt helps them determine which pieces of equipment are contributing the most.
FB
always good to see fellow sdreefers on RC
hehe
A kill-a-watt is a device which reports the actual power used by a device. So for example, if you have a pump that is supposed to be only 40watts, you can actually test it. Often times devices will run higher or lower wattage then they are supposed and the kill-a-watt helps you determine that. Lots of mods that people do to their skimmer impellars for example will decrease the resistance ono the pump and the pump will run at a lower wattage. The kill-a-watt helps people monitor that. It's quite popular with people running larger tanks who suddenly run into expensive power bills. The kill-a-watt helps them determine which pieces of equipment are contributing the most.
FB
always good to see fellow sdreefers on RC
hehe
Anyone try putting one of these in a canopy. I'm putting together a new 90gal in the entry hall of my home and want the wood canopy on the unit for aesthetics. It seems a 48" unit would barely fit inside the canopy. I'd hate drilling holes in the side of the canopy. I guess buying four 14" units and turning them width wise is an option although that would be almost twice as much $ and the programming would be a pain.
Also, any thoughts on supplementing this setup with a couple of VHO 48" lights to deal with the light "gaps people are mentioning. You could use actinic blues for more of the same blue to keep the colors consistent with deeper water or maybe go with a 10K or 14K to briing it a little more white.
Also, any thoughts on supplementing this setup with a couple of VHO 48" lights to deal with the light "gaps people are mentioning. You could use actinic blues for more of the same blue to keep the colors consistent with deeper water or maybe go with a 10K or 14K to briing it a little more white.
jnb
Premium Member
http://www.sustainabilitysystems.com/products.php?cat=8
not sure what you are asking after your word also
not sure what you are asking after your word also
Amphibious
New member
Hey Nick, thanks for that link.
pjf
Premium Member
UV, Lifespan and PWM
UV, Lifespan and PWM
As BeanAnimal pointed out, some white LED’s emit near-UV (NUV) which causes a phosphor to fluoresce with white light. The NUV radiation degrades surrounding components and shortens the lifespan of the white LED. This is not a common method of creating white light with LED’s and I hope that the Solaris LED’s do not use this method. There are other methods to create white light by using phosphors that fluoresce under non-UV blue light (450nm-470nm) or by using no phosphors at all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED).
PWM is simply a light dimming method that saves electricity by rapidly turning the current off and on. If the frequency used is too slow, a light flicker perceptible to aquarium fauna may result. An alternative dimming method is to selectively shut off LED’s in an array. This can save electricity without flicker. The advantage of PWM is that all LED’s can be dimmed equally without changing the color spectrum and the light distribution.
I am confident that as more lighting manufacturers use LED's, we will have an abundance of choices in fixture lifespans, environmental impact, and dimming features.
UV, Lifespan and PWM
As BeanAnimal pointed out, some white LED’s emit near-UV (NUV) which causes a phosphor to fluoresce with white light. The NUV radiation degrades surrounding components and shortens the lifespan of the white LED. This is not a common method of creating white light with LED’s and I hope that the Solaris LED’s do not use this method. There are other methods to create white light by using phosphors that fluoresce under non-UV blue light (450nm-470nm) or by using no phosphors at all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED).
PWM is simply a light dimming method that saves electricity by rapidly turning the current off and on. If the frequency used is too slow, a light flicker perceptible to aquarium fauna may result. An alternative dimming method is to selectively shut off LED’s in an array. This can save electricity without flicker. The advantage of PWM is that all LED’s can be dimmed equally without changing the color spectrum and the light distribution.
I am confident that as more lighting manufacturers use LED's, we will have an abundance of choices in fixture lifespans, environmental impact, and dimming features.
WoW, Those hoods are amazing! With growth rates surpassing MH, the power savings being evident in less than one year, I'm surprised not every aquaculture shop in the country hasn't swaped out all there Halide systems by now.
Thanks for the very informative posts and the pictures of the unit itself (POST MORE INNARDS SHOTS!). Being a Nano/Pico reefer for 3 years now, the Solaris hood is just to big for my purposes. I'm hoping to built a Nano Luxeon Array using the same lense system/colors. Should cut my heat in half or a third! Not to mention accelating my frag rate....
Or I'll just pick up a Solaris 14", gut it, and toss the light bank into a 29G Oceanic Cube.
Thanks for the very informative posts and the pictures of the unit itself (POST MORE INNARDS SHOTS!). Being a Nano/Pico reefer for 3 years now, the Solaris hood is just to big for my purposes. I'm hoping to built a Nano Luxeon Array using the same lense system/colors. Should cut my heat in half or a third! Not to mention accelating my frag rate....
Or I'll just pick up a Solaris 14", gut it, and toss the light bank into a 29G Oceanic Cube.
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