Some new fish...

[Recty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15017087#post15017087 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DamnPepShrimp
Is an ich free tank your ultimate goal? I really don't think its possible, but could be wrong. To me, a little bit of ich is nothing to lose sleep over. If you have healthy fish, they will fight it off no problem. Personally, I'd be worried about coppering your whole tank and having some die off, thus making the water quality suffer and your fish potentially dying. If you are going to treat the display and want an ich free tank, then you need to take all your inverts in the 210g and your 4 new shrimp and put them in QT for a minimum of 12 weeks. I have heard of stories about leaving a display fallow for 12 weeks and ich still survived. Apparently there are two different types of strands of ich, one that can go without a host for about 6-8 weeks, the other about 12 weeks.

So if you think coppering your display will be ok. I would wait until the fish in QT have recovered, eating well and doing 100%. Give them a few weeks like you said. If they seem fine, no disease or any problems, then add them to the display. Wait until all the battling settles down, maybe a couple of weeks and then start treating with cupramine and prazipro. At this time or better before, I would put all inverts, hermits, snails, shrimp, anything that won't make the copper treatment into a QT tank. Also, if you plan on getting more inverts, replenish your CUC, now is the time. Keep them in QT by themselves with no hosts for ich for at least 12 weeks. Then you can treat the display for 4-6 weeks, and when the inverts are ready, add them back in.

That seems like a lot, but to me, that is the best and only way I see you having an ich free and healthy system. The only thing I don't like it coppering the display, but if you do, use cupramine. Make sure to keep the inverts fallow from ich hosts for 12 weeks, its extreme, but having an ich free tank is no easy task.

Yes, an ich free tank is my end goal. Think of it this way... when you've got $2-3000 worth of fish swimming around in a tank, you dont want to lose it all to a parasite

I had a major tank wipe out about a year ago, all my fish died to ich. The ich had been in the tank a while and was at a totally "acceptable" level to the fish. Some fish would show spots from time to time but quickly get over it. Then my controller had a failure and the heater stopped plus my return pump stopped. This happened sometime in the middle of the night and my tank temps went from 78 degrees to about 70 plus all that was keeping the water oxygenated was some koralia pumps, but it was just blowing water around, not getting real nice and O2 saturated like a protein skimmer helps with. Long story short, I woke up in the AM to the problem, quickly fixed it, and by the next day every single fish in there looked like I sprinkled salt all over them. Some you could barely see the fish between all the ich.

Anyway, I just dont ever want that to happen again. Yes, I know a healthy fish can live successfully with ich. I want to know, though, that if a big major stressful event happens, my fish wont have to deal with ich coming back in a major way.

It may be a lot of work to accomplish this, but in the long run I think it's worth it.

As far as moving my inverts and what not to a QT tank for 12 weeks, it's already been done, basically. I've got 4 or 5 small hermit crabs in the main tank and that is it. All my shrimp are in QT right now and they can stay there just fine for as long as they need. I dont think I'll be ordering any more clean up crew, I thought about it though. I never have to scrape my glass anymore, I honestly havent cleaned the glass for 3-4 months. I havent had a algae problem at all except my rocks getting some green growth but the tangs and angels all seem to like it, so I dont really care if it's there. I dont feed near as much as I used to when I had triggers either, it's really easy to feed just the right amount to the tank, no excess, so the couple little pieces that dont get eaten I think the shrimps will take care of.

I'm not really worried about die off in the tank, there isn't much in there to die off but bacteria, all invert life is wiped out multiple times over. From studies I've read, it seems like bacteria colonies lose about 25% of their population when initially treating with copper and it quickly ramps back up. Most fish dont seem to eat well for the first couple days of copper anyway so I probably wont be feeding much.

Anyway, yes, a lot of work is involved, but healthy fish is the outcome I hope and I'm willing to do that

 

[Recty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15017323#post15017323 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by danorth
I wanted some for bio process and I didn't have enough storage and was too lazy to get more. So left plenty in to deal with ammonia and nitrite.

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question then Why did you pull any of the rock out? Just to make it easier to treat with copper? To be honest, it would be much easier for me just to leave it all in, then to pull it out and have to leave it in a heated tub with circulation for 8-12 weeks and HOPE that all the ich died off.

I'd rather just nuke it all.

 

[danorth]

It was during the summer so I didn't worry about the temp, it actually got to about 95* in the can. Zero light and it was in there from April until August. That rock was spotless when it came out.

I didn't want to nuke it all incase I decided to get rid of the "tainted" rock, but it wasn't tainted at all. Also, I was able to better guess how much water was left in to treat. Also, less rock to suck up the copper.

 

[danorth]

In your case, it might be best then to nuke it all and be safe.

 

[Carant]

Recty,

Currently I have all my fish in a 300 gallon live stock watering tub. I had about 200 lbs of live rock and a RDSB. This is temporay as I setup my new tank. I had a opportunity to get a friend's larger tangs that he could no longer keep so that is the reason for getting it setup prior to getting the tank.

Of course I purchased some other fish along the way. Of course, no qt ... thus I got an ick break out. It got real bad.

So, I took out over half the rock as some of it had zoos and some LPS and put that in the sump ... that would be isolated.

I lowered the water level as I did not wish to treat too much water ... moved the Skimmer into the tub itself with the heaters.

Treated with SeaChem Cupramine ... 1/3 dosage approx .. then tested .. and over three days brought it up to full treatment (it was impossible to know the exact water amount).

This is a bare bottom tub, and I put in PVC sewer piping for hiding ... left one major live rock cave where the big Hippo and Naso hang out.

On the fourth day ... water quality was off the roof. I moved the PVC and it looked like someone put in over two dozen earth worms (estimated body mass illustration). There were tons of bristleworms.

I quickly siphoned out those and any other detritus and did a 25% water change.

All this leads to the fact that copper will kill all inverts. Now I was lucky in that it was barebottom and it was easy to find the dead and dieing bristleworms. Likewise since I dosed over three days, many of the bristleworms got out of their hiding place to die ... if I had of dosed faster .. they could of just died and rotted in their tunnels.

All this is to be a warning .. watch out, there may be more inverts in your live rock and sand bed than you think your have.

So just be prepared for this die off.

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My idea was that the other rock would be fish free for over three months .... and then would be ick free. I have been feeding this ... just for the bristleworms ...and again this would seed the display tank when I get it setup.

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Copper levels ... I was surprised how much the little live rock I had actually absorbed the copper. After the initial water change, I dosed again to bring up the copper to recommended levels. Two days, no water change ...and no top up ... the copper level was at half recommended dosage. So between the live rock and the RDSB ... that is where the copper had to go.

I have not used any copper removal media ... just water changes after the treatment ... and leaving it hypo for another 4 weeks. Currently the copper level is non detectible ... however I am sure the rocks are still leaching out small amounts. By the time they are used for the tank ... I am hoping there is nothing to nill there. In the big tank .. they little will not have any effect.

Hope it works for me.

Good luck with your treatment.
Bruce

 

[Recty]

I dont have any inverts to worry about, but I appreciate the warning. I've hypo'd these rocks twice now, killing off pretty much all life but bacteria. I'm not worried about the copper killing off anything but some bacteria.

In good news, I put in nori strips for the first time today and the blue face went over immediately and started eating them. The majestic wasnt interested in eating it, although it went up to the strange looking plastic nemo and gave it a dirty glance or two.

 

[Recty]

Just an update, the majestic is eating pellets now. I think my problem is the 3mm pellets are just a little too big for it, but I actually ordered some of the 1mm sinking NLS pellets on Thursday, so I should get those next week and be able to feed.

The way I got him to eat them is put them into my container of food the night before so they soaked up some juice and got soft, then he gobbles them down.

 

[regina574]

Glad to hear the majestic is eating. The red sea raccoon is growing on me!

 

[blface]

I sometimes soak the pellets in garlic or Zoe until all of the liquid is gone. Most of my fish eat them either way. My anthias( trio of dispar & female square back) & bluespotted angel won't eat any pellets.

 

[hamilton]

What's the best place to order the NLS pellets from?

 

[regina574]

I ordered mine from http://fishsupply.com/sff-sp43700.html

 

[DamnPepShrimp]

I am considering treating my display tank as well but just scared about die off and how much copper I'd be using with live rock. Don't know if hypo would be a better solution, copper is quicker though. Hypo might be a good way in introduce the live rock to harsh conditions then coppering. Still have a fish or two to add until my tank is fully stocked though. So what are you doing Recty and how is everything going?

 

[Recty]

So far, no change in my original plan. I've got the three new fish in the back room just going through basic quarantine. I'm still hypoing my main tank, which is working fine. The emperor still shows an ich spot or two pretty much nonstop, but the two tangs are 100% clear looking.

I'm just not worried about copper causing die off in my main tank, I think the hypo has killed off pretty much everything as it stands, so the copper wont do much more than kill off ich and some bacteria. I'll probably take 3-4 days to raise the copper to full power, rather than the day that Seachem suggests, just to give the bacteria time to hopefully adjust.

But I still havent decided yet. I just really want to do something that ensures my fish cant contact ich.

I was discussing things with Chris a couple weeks ago and he always runs low levels of copper in his tank and can treat at full levels whenever he wants to, so I really dont think me treating will cause any huge problems. Nothing that cant be fixed by a water change, anyway.

 

[danorth]

What is the point of a low level dose?

 

[DamnPepShrimp]

Running copper (even in small amounts) can't be good for the fish long term! I'm scared to treat copper in the display. Even if it's a small dosage, having some crazy die off and waking up to dead fish. I might remove a lot of my rock, just have enough for the eel and fish to hide in if I decide to copper treat. That way there is less die off and less copper absorbed. I can leave my other live rock fallow for 12-15 weeks. Biggest thing holding me back is I'd rather wait until my tank is fully stocked so I only have to do it once, but that's tougher on the bioload. Just have to keep up with water changes I guess, I already have 3 month old biowheels soaking in my sump to help the natural filtration. Goodluck and let me know how it goes when you start coppering.

 

[Recty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15029461#post15029461 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by danorth
What is the point of a low level dose?

I think it's kind of like the common fish store approach, low levels of the metal are still toxic, just not REAL toxic, but it does help keep ich down.

 

[Recty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15029494#post15029494 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DamnPepShrimp
Running copper (even in small amounts) can't be good for the fish long term! I'm scared to treat copper in the display. Even if it's a small dosage, having some crazy die off and waking up to dead fish. I might remove a lot of my rock, just have enough for the eel and fish to hide in if I decide to copper treat. That way there is less die off and less copper absorbed. I can leave my other live rock fallow for 12-15 weeks. Biggest thing holding me back is I'd rather wait until my tank is fully stocked so I only have to do it once, but that's tougher on the bioload. Just have to keep up with water changes I guess, I already have 3 month old biowheels soaking in my sump to help the natural filtration. Goodluck and let me know how it goes when you start coppering.

I wouldnt think it is good long term either, but as far as knowing how to treat angelfish goes, I think Chris has a pretty good handle on it.

So, hyposalinity and copper is a bad thing, right? I cant remember. I'd almost like to treat the buggers now while it's at 1.009 but I think I recall reading somewhere that copper is much more toxic at low salinity.

 

[danorth]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15029541#post15029541 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Recty
I think it's kind of like the common fish store approach, low levels of the metal are still toxic, just not REAL toxic, but it does help keep ich down.

But that common fish store approach is also in my area people that don't really know how to care for fish. I have heard people say the same thing for running 1.017 all the time if a fowlr tank too. I'd want to know from a pro if low level is worth anything. It would be like taking a few licks of a viagra to have an all day chub. :lol:

 

[Recty]

Talk to ccampbell about it, he keeps copper in his systems all the time.

 

[DamnPepShrimp]

Yes, copper and hypo are very bad. I'd like to hear more about low levels of copper constantly, you must have to dose a lot! I run my salinity around 1.018-1.020. I know if you run a lower SG it does nothing for ich, you have to run 1.009 to kill it. So why wouldn't it be the same for copper? I've been told by several pros that you have to run the correct dosage of copper for it to be effective. Too much and you kill the fish, not enough and the disease still survives. Ich is a very stubborn parasite and I don't see a low level of copper killing it effectively. I think chris just keeps his tank virtually stress free by water quality, feedings etc and that is the best ich defense, a fish's healthy immune system.