Some serious questions, please

[Fingers68]

New 755 ltr tank with 100 ltr sump, system now 6 weeks old.

86 kg of quality cured live rock,

16 kg 2 years old
30 kg 4 months old
40 kg 1.5 month old

New water

ph 8.2
kh. 9
calcium 440
phosphate 0
nitrate < 2
nitrite 0

Stock is 21 small fish, the biggest is a yellow tang the rest are all under 4 inch 10 are under 2 inch, 4 are under 1 inch.

Loads of turbo snalls 40 + and rising collany
Loads of other snails (big brown with small shell)
20+ hermit crabs
3 cleaner shrimp
1 tiger shrimp
2 sexy shrimp
1 boxer shrimp
Clam
various crabs.

29 verieties of mix corral all looking very happy and well

Everything is looking good and well.

HOWEVER and here is the question

With a new tank I am going through a bloom, I have a red slim and a brown slim bloom. The brown seems to be taking over from the red at the mo but I wonder if feeding to much might be compounding the problem. I have a mandarin dragonet which looked a little pinched in the shop (not seen another so cant compare) and there might not be enough established pods to sustian it, but not sure. It seems to be happy roaming around and pecking at the rock, munching and blowing silt, but I am a little worried its not getting enough. So I am feeding a little more than I would like to.

SO

With the phosphate being 0 am I ok to continue to over feed and the bloom will just sort its self out in time? or cutting back on the food might stop the brown bloom?

 

[JeF4y]

What are you feeding your Mandarin? If you're feeding live copepods you can't really over-feed the tank. If you're feeding frozen, are you sure it's eating it? Many won't (mine thankfully does)...

 

[BLKTANG]

With the new LR,NSW,& the whole introduction of fish,& coral into a new invionnment IMHO its a cycle.Slow down on the feeding,(if your overfeding).

 

[noahm]

Probably jumped the gun a bit, but lets not dwell on that. 6 weeks and 21 fish... Anyway, your tank is not really done cycling yet. The cyano and diatom blooms are generally normal and will go away with proper husbandry and time. I would suggest getting the mandarin into a tank with established pods. They are notorious for starving to death in a young tank.

I realize it is a pretty large tank, so if your other params are normal/safe, just continue to feed lightly and please, please do some research on tank cycling and new tanks before adding anything else. wetwebmedia.com is a great source all kinds of stuff as well as just reading different topics on this forum. No matter how you got to this point, you and your fish will be happier with the knowledge.

 

[Fingers68]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15170198#post15170198 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JeF4y
What are you feeding your Mandarin? If you're feeding live copepods you can't really over-feed the tank. If you're feeding frozen, are you sure it's eating it? Many won't (mine thankfully does)...

Frozen mix of
mysis shrimp
brine shrimp
a little spinach

What is yours eating as I can never tell what mine is pecking at, frozen or live pod? Also do they feed at night?

I appreciate it looks like a rush job but I have just updated my over stuffed 180 ltr tank, and I guess I have not been as slow as might be best. Apart from the dragonet all other fish are hardy guys and doing great, in fact enjoying the feast. I just am not sure if the dragonet is getting enough food. He seems to be keen to roam around all the rock and I see him pecking but I can not see what he is actually pecking at!

Has anyone got a pic of a healthy well feed dragonet where you can see the stomach? mine for sure has a pinched in belly, but this might be just normal?

 

[Paul B]

You also have 27 crustaceans in there which need to be fed in such a young tank. The blooms will eventually leave. You will need to supply some small sinking pellets for all those crabs and shrimp.

 

[Ohiomom]

just an fyi..pinched belly is never normal on any fish..

 

[noahm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15170351#post15170351 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fingers68
Frozen mix of
mysis shrimp
brine shrimp
a little spinach

What is yours eating as I can never tell what mine is pecking at, frozen or live pod? Also do they feed at night?

I appreciate it looks like a rush job but I have just updated my over stuffed 180 ltr tank, and I guess I have not been as slow as might be best. Apart from the dragonet all other fish are hardy guys and doing great, in fact enjoying the feast. I just am not sure if the dragonet is getting enough food. He seems to be keen to roam around all the rock and I see him pecking but I can not see what he is actually pecking at!

Has anyone got a pic of a healthy well feed dragonet where you can see the stomach? mine for sure has a pinched in belly, but this might be just normal?

The belly should be fattish. They tend to be pinched in the LFS because they already have no been eating, sometimes for weeks. They are notorious for not taking anything but live foods. Some come around, but many will never take prepared food. I would buy some live pods or see if someone has a fuge to throw him in for a while, help the tank along with some live pod additions, then bring him back. He is really your main concern at this point.

Good luck

Not mine, and not the best angle, but you can see...not pinched.

 

[Paul B]

They do tend to hide their bellies behind those large pectorial fins.

 

[snorvich]

You should not have a mandarin in a six week old tank. Whether it eats frozen is immaterial, it will starve. If it has a pinched belly, it is almost there now. 21 fish in a six week old tank is asking for trouble which will be coming along rather quickly. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. SLOW DOWN. Start reading.

 

[BangkokMatt]

^^^^what he said^^^^^

 

[Fingers68]

The belly should be fattish. They tend to be pinched in the LFS because they already have no been eating, sometimes for weeks. They are notorious for not taking anything but live foods. Some come around, but many will never take prepared food. I would buy some live pods or see if someone has a fuge to throw him in for a while, help the tank along with some live pod additions, then bring him back. He is really your main concern at this point.

I am looking to get some live pods injected in there, my system has some (unknown quantity) but wont harm to ad more.

You should not have a mandarin in a six week old tank. Whether it eats frozen is immaterial, it will starve. If it has a pinched belly, it is almost there now. 21 fish in a six week old tank is asking for trouble which will be coming along rather quickly.

Disagree, the tanks water was and is perfect, the rock matured and cured. Yes the mandarin maybe better suited to a tank with more pods, but for all I know he might be getting his fair share already? He was pinched in the shop, by your account he would just die in the shop. Should I have just left him there? Why is it no good if he is eating frozen food? Just cant see your logic.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. SLOW DOWN. Start reading.

Please dont think I am just some muppet. My friend has one of the biggest tanks in the UK and his business partner, possible the biggest. I have taken plenty advice and done some research. Like I have said all is very very well bar the bloom which is not going to kill the fish. My manderin is the main conserne, which would have just died in the shop had I not taken him.

 

[Paul B]

Why is it no good if he is eating frozen food? Just cant see your logic.

Fingers, it is not bad if a mandarin eats frozen or prepared foods. That is great. The problem is that a mandarin is somewhat like a seahorse in that it's dijestive system can not handle much food at once, there fore it needs to eat constantly.
Fish like that have no real stomach and can not store food. That is why they eat tiny pods. They can't process much larger items.
They usually eat a pod every 10 or 15 seconds. Or they try to eat one anyway.
Good luck my friend

 

[nikon187]

It doesn't matter if they eat frozen or not, Mandarines NEED pods to survive and thrive.

 

[ReefWreak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15175132#post15175132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nikon187
It doesn't matter if they eat frozen or not, Mandarines NEED pods to survive and thrive.

Coral Magazine from jan/feb had a great article discussing a few hobby myths that people still stick to. The assumption that your tank could ever support a pod population large enough to keep finicky pod-only eaters fed was one of them. Unless you've got a GIANT tank with one or two mandarins or other fish who only eat pods, I would wean them on normal food asap. Mandarins don't NEED pods to survive, they prefer it, but they'll survive if they eat other normal foods. Mandarins PREFER pods to survive, but will survive off of other foods if weaned on to them slowly. Also a great article in that same magazine mentioned above about breeding and raising mandarin fish.

 

[gabbagabbawill]

You came on here and asked questions, so you must be looking for answers... well, you got them. You may not like the news, but what others have said is correct. Adding 21 fish in 6 weeks time is too many too soon. No matter what rock you have.

First off, the pods have not had enough time to develop into a thriving population. 21 fish could easily diminish these numbers quickly which could cause it to take a while to get back up to the numbers you want.

You're asking about an algae bloom and say that your water quality is perfect. You can't have both. The algae is eating up the nutrients which is why it tests good!

You may be able to pull through and have most things survive it because you have such a large set up and lots of good rock, but you're gonna really need to help it along. Water changes, skimming, and a macro algae refugium will all help.

People here are just trying to help, please don't take the advice as criticizing your decisions or shoot the messenger! You are on here asking for help, which is a good start on the right path, as I'm sure you'll find the answers you need.

Best of luck!

 

[gabbagabbawill]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15175210#post15175210 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefWreak
The assumption that your tank could ever support a pod population large enough to keep finicky pod-only eaters fed was one of them.

At one time, I had a very happy mandarin in a 55 gallon reef tank that was eating pods alone. That Target mandarin was fat and happy!

I support this being the main food source, and as with any reef inhabitant, IMNSHO, natural is most often better.

Of course, if you can support their diet with other foods, go ahead.

 

[Fingers68]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice, this is what I am after. Upgrading your tank is by definition going to be a bit of a rush job as there is no option but to stock the tank with your existing stocks. I had the luxury of having the new tank running for 2 weeks with the new rock in before I had to transfer all my old tank stocks, in one go. Everything has survived the transfer, I feel I have been lucky not to loose anything.

Back to the mandarin

The problem is that a mandarin is somewhat like a seahorse in that it's dijestive system can not handle much food at once, there fore it needs to eat constantly.

Interesting, he is constantly on the go and nipping at the rock, at what, I can not see, but apparently the pods can be very small. So maybe he is getting what he needs? If the mandarin was pinched in the LFS how long would you guess it might take to notice a little weight gain if he is getting enough food? I have had him for 2 weeks now.

You're asking about an algae bloom and say that your water quality is perfect. You can't have both. The algae is eating up the nutrients which is why it tests good!

So should I back off the feed? I only was feeding more because of the mandarin but if this might not make any difference it might be best to go back to normal feeding. I am using an APF 600 which I clean daily and skim a quarter of a cup daily. Interesting theory about the bloom eating all the nutrients but would there not be some phosphate trace in the water? I have seen other tests with very green/red/brown tanks that have lots of it. But I do think backing off the feed would be better for sure as this will not be hepling. I thought the heavy skimming might be dragging alot of the phosphate out?

 

[Rich D]

you can not say your water quality is perfect when you have 2 large algae blooms, think of all the pH and nitrates stored in the algae. As for the mandarin, my tank is a year old and I still am afraid to keep one, I doubt I ever will for fear of killing it.

 

[gabbagabbawill]

If you have a lot of live rock, you should have no problem keeping the kind of populations of pods up that you need for mandarins. I find pod populations in the weirdest places. I think that crushed coral substrate is better for keeping lots of them, but not necessarily the best substrate choice otherwise.

I'm planning on getting a mandarin for my current set up, but I'm going to wait until I have a flourishing pod population before I do. Like I said earlier, I had a fat and happy one in my previous 55 gallon set up (and I know that's not the norm) for over a year before the tank crashed hard and wiped everything out.

I'm looking for ways to help keep up the numbers... so far, refugium with cheato and rubble is the only thing I'm doing... I'd like to find some other ways to give pods a place to thrive, myself.