SPS Gurus - help me out please

[jimrawr]

Wankelrx, thanks for the post. What you suggest is basically what I have been thinking and been trying to do. Ive slowly backed off my carbon dosing, actually today was my first day not dosing it at all. Ive been feeding a lot (stated above how much) when usually I was feeding one cube per day. I should try cutting back my photo period instead of 8 hours back to 6 or something, but I am not convinced thats really my issue here.. Maybe I should try to add more fish as well to get the bioload up a bit. The thing is trying to increase food for coral hasnt worked, at least adding the aminos. Just started with the Oyster Feast so will see how that does after a few weeks.. Right now doing 1/2 tspn per day.

 

[stevedola]

another thing to keep in mind is that you replaced your LR and it takes time for a system to adjust to something like that. my take is that you must of had nutrient problems to have a huge GHA problem and then you started carbon dosing and replaced the rock to fix it. Sps wont grow well in high nutrient system and now theyve been shocked with no nutrients and gone pale. you change the water chemistry but the effects of low nutrients doesnt translate well quickly. stability isnt only about calc and alk but also in regards to the overall tank health and nutrient levels. Stability comes with time and consistancy. one of my first tanks wasnt stable enough for sps until it was 1 year old...sps would look good for 3-4 weeks and then die. soon as I stablized my tank and keep up with good husbandy everything seemed to click and before I knew it I had sps colonies the size of dinner plates. your tank has plenty of means of nutrient export with the fuge and algea scrubber...theres no need for carbon dosing with the amount of fish you have. regular water changes, consistant dosing, and time will give you the results youre interested in.

also, I think over feeding will only lead to more problems down the road. its a very difficult narrow path to tight walk running carbon dosing and over feeding to make up for it...too much of one and problem.

 

[jimrawr]

Part of what you say is correct, I will try to give you a run down of the tank history. I did have a GHA problem that wouldn't go away but it wasn't necessarily because of high nutrients. I mean, I am sure at first the problem started that way but at the end I was doing a lot to keep nutrients down and the algae wasn't growing, but also wasn't going away. I had an opportunity to do a rock swap and so I did. All the rock was pulled from another system and was very health clean rock. I never had a cycle or any problem arising from that rock swap. At that point my NO3 was around 1, and my PO4 was around .03-.08 somewhere in that range. It wasnt a case of the algae eating up all the nutrients, the algae wasnt growing, but I was changing GFO multiple times a week to get the GHA to die but it never died. Honestly my best period was right after I changed the rock I started getting good growth and color, and somewhere along the way I lost it again. I think there is something behind that fact that i dont get good coraline growth, I get some but not much, and I dont know why that is..

Also I will add that I started carbon dosing about 3 weeks ago. Oyster feast less than a week, and AA's about 2-3 weeks ago or so I believe. So a lot of the stuff I am doing now, is to try and fix a problem that I already had. The problem was existing before these changes, which makes me thing my water is deficient in something but i don't have a clue what.. Again it brings me to why cant I grow coraline?

In my old nano tank coraline grew like crazy, and I didnt even know what PO4 was at that point or about dosing. SPS was growing well and colorful and I didnt have a clue about SPS nor the equipment I have today. Guess it was beginers luck or something is holding back my tank right now but i dont know what

 

[wankelrx]

Wankelrx, thanks for the post. What you suggest is basically what I have been thinking and been trying to do. Ive slowly backed off my carbon dosing, actually today was my first day not dosing it at all. Ive been feeding a lot (stated above how much) when usually I was feeding one cube per day. I should try cutting back my photo period instead of 8 hours back to 6 or something, but I am not convinced thats really my issue here.. Maybe I should try to add more fish as well to get the bioload up a bit. The thing is trying to increase food for coral hasnt worked, at least adding the aminos. Just started with the Oyster Feast so will see how that does after a few weeks.. Right now doing 1/2 tspn per day.

There seems to be an ideal nutrient to light ratio for best growth and color. Under norished corals seem to be much less tolerant to long photoperiods of intense light and pale out quick. Light gives them the energy they need to build the skeleton but they also need nutrients and organic compounds to actually create new tissue. My corals now seem to get more color in direct light so now I've started experimenting bumping up the photoperiod.

Look at the encrusting edges. Does the tissue look thin and translucent? Can you see the skeleton at the edges? It should be thick. If it's thin looking then they are probably nutrient starved.

I tried aminos too and it did not work alone. Nothing really worked for me until started feeding alot. I went thru 1 bottle oyster feast 1 bottle rotifeast 2 small packages of rods coral blend and 1/2 bottle aquavitro fuel in about 6 weeks plus feeding fish pellets and flakes 2-3x a day. Also note I had about 300ml of biopellets running too with carbon and no GFO.

I couldn't grow coralline either. All that grew was some brown patchy fuzz algae. Coralline growth exploded after heavy feeding and the brown patchy stuff died off.

I've backed off feeding corals about every other day now. Alternating between oyster feast, reef pearls, and rods coral blend. Soon I think I can just feed the fish alittle extra frozen and be good without and extra coral foods.

You just need to find that right balance of import/export. Seems like you are way heavy on the export side. How often do you need to empty your skimmer cup?

 

[dunk373]

not a guru but want to ask what are you testing with, especially po4 and is it accurate? Mg is low but i really don't think thats it at all. I started sps and growth was ok, but no coraline. I added gfo reactor and got a hanna and lowered p04 and growth was good. All your readings look good maybe there is a minor element missing what salt are you using? I have checked some salinitys for some people and its way off check the basics thoroughly and double check with a different test. One question, I use no zeo no carbon,vodka or any of that stuff therefore not familiar, but isn't carbon dosing, fuge, a skimmer, and an algae scrubber doing the same thing? P04 and trate removal? Also randys two part again not familiar, is it like brs 2 part? I use brs 2 part, have a lot of sps, and fast growth and am dosing 110ml as well, so the question is if you are dosing that much with no growth then where is it going that seems weird to me

 

[wankelrx]

Your old tank did good because it was stable. You weren't constantly experimenting and dumping stuff in. I know because I did the exact same thing. The only things I check test now are alk,ca, and mag. I don't worry about N or P anymore. I just watch coral for that.

 

[Met3112]

What was the cause of the hair algae in the first place?

I agree the tank looks really sterile. Definitely not a tank that has been running for 3 years. If you rip everything out and put new rock in then you are basically starting over. How did you cycle your tank?

You need to make sure you are doing water changes. Nutrient issues or not.

Do you have any other lifeforms growing in there? copepods, amphipods, bristle worms, tube worms, sponges, ... etc?

Raise your Mag.

 

[steevareno2002]

I would raise the Mag too. I had a tank that had almost zero coralline growth but when I tested and adjusted, it took off! I think it will take time and patience but I hear you, it's frustrating. I'm no guru though :/ Also what test kits are you using for Mag and PO4? Did you buy the tank new? If not maybe it had copper in it at one point?

 

[dzhuo]

I think there is something behind that fact that i dont get good coraline growth, I get some but not much, and I dont know why that is..

That would be my first guess as well. It's not just you can't grow ay coralline algae, you can't grow any algae at all. The rocks look like they are put in there yesterday; not 6 months. Since you replace all of your rocks roughly 6 months ago, it's somewhat misleading to say the tank has been operating for 3 years. However, I don't believe a new tank is entirely responsible for the misery of your SPS. The way you describe how your SPS dies (the length and slow death) is a very classic example of corals starving or a chronic stress that the corals eventually lose the battle.

You mention you feed 1 cube of frozen a day? If so, that's really not much and I would at least triple the amount until you start to see algae growing at which point you cut back a bit and go from there.

Have you run poly filter before to rule out any contamination?

 

[dzhuo]

isn't carbon dosing, fuge, a skimmer, and an algae scrubber doing the same thing?

Fuge, carbon dosing (both the liquid and solid form) and ATS use the basic principle for N & P reduction. The Redfield Reduction basically govern the N & P removal ratio. The primary difference between the 3 is the efficiency of removal and one uses bacteria (which also requires a fairly powerful skimmer) while another uses algae.

Also randys two part again not familiar, is it like brs 2 part?

BRS 2 part is made commercial base on Randy's 2-part. Most commercial 2 part solutions are identical with various degree of purity and potency.

 

[cediss]

not a guru but want to ask what are you testing with, especially po4 and is it accurate? Mg is low but i really don't think thats it at all. I started sps and growth was ok, but no coraline. I added gfo reactor and got a hanna and lowered p04 and growth was good. All your readings look good maybe there is a minor element missing what salt are you using? I have checked some salinitys for some people and its way off check the basics thoroughly and double check with a different test. One question, I use no zeo no carbon,vodka or any of that stuff therefore not familiar, but isn't carbon dosing, fuge, a skimmer, and an algae scrubber doing the same thing? P04 and trate removal? Also randys two part again not familiar, is it like brs 2 part? I use brs 2 part, have a lot of sps, and fast growth and am dosing 110ml as well, so the question is if you are dosing that much with no growth then where is it going that seems weird to me

I think dunk373 has a point here with regard to double checking things, even basics like salinity. We take it for
granted with basic things like this.


I had almost identical problems you have described. Corals look great at first, encrust but slow down. PE declines. Some lps and mushrooms with mouths open (this happened later as salinity drifted up around 1.028-1.029). Corals getting pale. My coraline grows on surfaces but little signs of any algae after 6 months of starting tank ( never experienced that in all my years keeping reefs). Most new tanks go through an algae stage including some nuisance algaes.


My numbers aside from salinity and 0 PO4 were very similar and in recommended ranges.



I removed the bio-pellets and within that same period discovered my refractometer was reading low. So salinity was closer to 1.030 rather than 1.026. I increased fish load and feedings. I slowly started correcting salinity and immediately corals started looking better within days. Within 10-14 days growth and color began to pick up in acroporas. I'm about 21 days in since making these changes and overall feel things are really coming around with all corals improving color, growth and PE. Now see green algae and unfortunately valonia appearing. I have chaeto growing in reservoir. Nitrates still 0 and PO4 barely detectable on Salifert.


Just stick to making sure all numbers are accurate, routine water changes and maintenance is done. Don't dose carbon until things look good and the numbers require you to do that (nitrates climbing toward 5+). Remember that carbon dosing is a newer trend relative to reef
Keeping history (ie its not absolutely necessary for success) and it works best on tanks with heavy nutrient input. I think we see great looking reefs stocked up with lots of fish and coral growing amazing and find out they have a carbon source so we jump to mimic this. What we don't hear is how they dosed carbon after the tank was stocked. Or some stock the tank in a few months to that max level so carbon dosing is needed early. But many people stock their tanks slowly over many months or even years. So putting on a carbon source on an immature and lightly stocked system can cause more problems than good.


** DISCLAIMER: I'm not a SPS guru and have like you had success with SPS in the past. My opinions are based on years of experience, recent mistakes, and analyzing mistakes that others have discovered.

 

[saltyh20]

I had a similar problem in my 75 gallon. I'm running 6 ATI bulbs, SWC 160 skimmer, biopellets, 6 fish.
I finally have color back with good growth. Here is what I did.

Add more fish 9 total (includes 5 anthias).
Stopped biopellets (I would suggest stop carbon dosing for awhile).
Stop all supplement dosing.
Get all parmameters inline (bump mag up and maybe SG up a tad).
Keep everything stable (looks like you are doing good there)
Feed lots. Start with 1ml oyster feast a day and increase each week until 3 ml and hold there. Feed fish at least 2X a day and feed some frozen some if your not already.
Cut photoperiod down to about 5 hours all bulbs, 8 or 9 hour actinic only.
Change 10% water weekly.


Just make sure you don't increase feeding too fast and stay consistent.

Sit back and be patient, it will probably take at least a month or two before growth starts kicking in.

I think it took about 2 weeks before I started see more color. Some corals went through a shade of brown then I started seeing green shimmer before changing to the normal color. Some corals are just now getting polyp extension back after 3 months so the recovery time varies alot from coral to coral.

I restarted my biopellets after about 3 weeks. I just adjust feeding now depending how light or dark the corals are.

One thing I did that I think really helped was to buy a couple nice mini colonies with dark rich color. After I put them in the tank I used their color as a guide for feeding. If I saw the tip start to lighten I feed alittle more or if I see hints of brown feed alittle less. So far, it's been working well for me.

Hope this helps...good luck.

+1
when you start getting color back you can bring back all lights by adding 30min each week.

 

[jimrawr]

There seems to be an ideal nutrient to light ratio for best growth and color. Under norished corals seem to be much less tolerant to long photoperiods of intense light and pale out quick. Light gives them the energy they need to build the skeleton but they also need nutrients and organic compounds to actually create new tissue. My corals now seem to get more color in direct light so now I've started experimenting bumping up the photoperiod.

Look at the encrusting edges. Does the tissue look thin and translucent? Can you see the skeleton at the edges? It should be thick. If it's thin looking then they are probably nutrient starved.

I tried aminos too and it did not work alone. Nothing really worked for me until started feeding alot. I went thru 1 bottle oyster feast 1 bottle rotifeast 2 small packages of rods coral blend and 1/2 bottle aquavitro fuel in about 6 weeks plus feeding fish pellets and flakes 2-3x a day. Also note I had about 300ml of biopellets running too with carbon and no GFO.

I couldn't grow coralline either. All that grew was some brown patchy fuzz algae. Coralline growth exploded after heavy feeding and the brown patchy stuff died off.

I've backed off feeding corals about every other day now. Alternating between oyster feast, reef pearls, and rods coral blend. Soon I think I can just feed the fish alittle extra frozen and be good without and extra coral foods.

You just need to find that right balance of import/export. Seems like you are way heavy on the export side. How often do you need to empty your skimmer cup?

Again you make a lot of sense to me, and I agree with you!! The tissue on the SPS at the ends where it encrusts doesnt look healthy, in fact its like you described thin and even white at the tips where it looks like it will start to STN. As far as the skimmer cup, it doesnt pull out much at all TBH, I usually empty it every couple days just to keep it clean, but I am sure I could go a few (2-3 weeks) before it would fill up.

 

[sahin]

I had a similar problem in my 75 gallon. I'm running 6 ATI bulbs, SWC 160 skimmer, biopellets, 6 fish.
I finally have color back with good growth. Here is what I did.

Add more fish 9 total (includes 5 anthias).
Stopped biopellets (I would suggest stop carbon dosing for awhile).
Stop all supplement dosing.
Get all parmameters inline (bump mag up and maybe SG up a tad).
Keep everything stable (looks like you are doing good there)
Feed lots. Start with 1ml oyster feast a day and increase each week until 3 ml and hold there. Feed fish at least 2X a day and feed some frozen some if your not already.
Cut photoperiod down to about 5 hours all bulbs, 8 or 9 hour actinic only.
Change 10% water weekly.


Just make sure you don't increase feeding too fast and stay consistent.

Sit back and be patient, it will probably take at least a month or two before growth starts kicking in.

I think it took about 2 weeks before I started see more color. Some corals went through a shade of brown then I started seeing green shimmer before changing to the normal color. Some corals are just now getting polyp extension back after 3 months so the recovery time varies alot from coral to coral.

I restarted my biopellets after about 3 weeks. I just adjust feeding now depending how light or dark the corals are.

One thing I did that I think really helped was to buy a couple nice mini colonies with dark rich color. After I put them in the tank I used their color as a guide for feeding. If I saw the tip start to lighten I feed alittle more or if I see hints of brown feed alittle less. So far, it's been working well for me.

Hope this helps...good luck.

+1
That is very good advise and I would try exactly that. I am very confident that if you follow the advise by wankelrx you should see things turn around and hopefully within 3-4 months you corals will be growing very well and have colour.

 

[jimrawr]

Thanks everyone for the posts, will try to address the questions

Your old tank did good because it was stable. You weren't constantly experimenting and dumping stuff in. I know because I did the exact same thing. The only things I check test now are alk,ca, and mag. I don't worry about N or P anymore. I just watch coral for that.

I use Hanna for PO4 and SeaChem for NO3

That would be my first guess as well. It's not just you can't grow ay coralline algae, you can't grow any algae at all. The rocks look like they are put in there yesterday; not 6 months. Since you replace all of your rocks roughly 6 months ago, it's somewhat misleading to say the tank has been operating for 3 years. However, I don't believe a new tank is entirely responsible for the misery of your SPS. The way you describe how your SPS dies (the length and slow death) is a very classic example of corals starving or a chronic stress that the corals eventually lose the battle.

You mention you feed 1 cube of frozen a day? If so, that's really not much and I would at least triple the amount until you start to see algae growing at which point you cut back a bit and go from there.

Have you run poly filter before to rule out any contamination?

This isnt really true. I do have some GHA in the tank, I also had diatoms that are gone now and also have some cyano thats gone now. I havent tried a poly filter, but the tank was bought new and always used RODI water, and also I am on well water so I dont know how it could get contaminated? Also my feeding is a good amount more than one cube per day right now. 1 cube, plus 2-3 pinches of flake or pellet, plus 2x2 sq of nori, plus oyster feast, plus aminos

not a guru but want to ask what are you testing with, especially po4 and is it accurate? Mg is low but i really don't think thats it at all. I started sps and growth was ok, but no coraline. I added gfo reactor and got a hanna and lowered p04 and growth was good. All your readings look good maybe there is a minor element missing what salt are you using? I have checked some salinitys for some people and its way off check the basics thoroughly and double check with a different test. One question, I use no zeo no carbon,vodka or any of that stuff therefore not familiar, but isn't carbon dosing, fuge, a skimmer, and an algae scrubber doing the same thing? P04 and trate removal? Also randys two part again not familiar, is it like brs 2 part? I use brs 2 part, have a lot of sps, and fast growth and am dosing 110ml as well, so the question is if you are dosing that much with no growth then where is it going that seems weird to me

Ok full test kits are
PO4 Hanna, NO3 Seachem, Ca ELOS, Alk Hanna, MG Elos, Salinity with refractormeter calibrated with solution not RODI. Salt I used IO but recently switched to Red Sea Coral Pro

 

[jimrawr]

What was the cause of the hair algae in the first place?

I agree the tank looks really sterile. Definitely not a tank that has been running for 3 years. If you rip everything out and put new rock in then you are basically starting over. How did you cycle your tank?

You need to make sure you are doing water changes. Nutrient issues or not.

Do you have any other lifeforms growing in there? copepods, amphipods, bristle worms, tube worms, sponges, ... etc?

Raise your Mag.

Went on vacation for a month, house sitter totally didnt follow my instructions and must have fed like crazy. Came back to a forest of a reef tank along with a couple fish death that were never removed. Problem started in August 10 and did the rock swap in April 11 I believe. The tank is loaded with pods worms sponges, ya. I used to do 10% water changes a week and have backed off of that as of this month, again thinking maybe the water is too clean and needs some nutrients.. Did the 10% changes since the tank has been up..

 

[stevedola]

10% WC wont really affect the nutrient levels of a tank too dramatically. 10% of 5ppm is only .5 ppm so I doubt that amount would create a overly sterile environment.

feedings are good just dont start dumping tons of food in...be gradual in the increase of food. allow the tank to use that food and adjust.

 

[dzhuo]

I havent tried a poly filter, but the tank was bought new and always used RODI water, and also I am on well water so I dont know how it could get contaminated?

The following tank is crashed due to contamination. I have seen multiple times when my kids trying to throw pennies to my sump as well. Poly filter is cheap and easy to use. If your LFS carry it, I would give it a try to see what it picks up.

The problem:

I will also second to calibrate your refractometer and check salinity.

Also, are you the same user who used to have problem with your RO/DI? If so, what's the problem and how do you fix it? When your tank is nutrient rich, are your SPS doing better, worse or about the same?

 

[wankelrx]

Also be aware corals that have zero polyps could take much longer to recover. If you any now that have polyp extension then watch those for signs of recovery first.
It's also possible some maybe just too far gone and may not make it.

 

[jimrawr]

I have a problem with my RODI in the sense that my well water is has a lot of CO2 so my DI resin needs to be changed every 60 gallons or so, but I do change it on time so really its not a problem for the water more of a problem on my wallet.

Refractometer is calibrated with the solution that marinedepot sells, so thats not the issue. Will try getting a poly filter see if that helps