Starting a tank for a school of moorish idols... Wish me luck

[trembz]

Hi!

I'll be moving in 2 months and I'll be tearing my current tank down, transferring all live rock and the few current inhabitants I'm keeping over to the new tank a few weeks after.
New tank will be a 220 Gallon
Tank mates I'll be bringing from my current tank are
1. Naso tang
2. Melanurus wrasse
3. Flame angel

I've placed an order for 10x moorish idols as well as 1 x batfish

My lfs will be receiving the idols sometime in April and hold them for me aside in a holding/QT tank .. so they will have been qt'ed for a little over a month prior to me bringing them home.

I've kept idols before, individually mind you. Have had rather decent success also.

I'm just wondering if anybody had some recommendations or tips to increase my odds of success (such as specific foods for the more finicky of the bunch or rock work layouts for that size group)
Also I dont see an issue with keeping a Batfish with a school of Idols but if someone has first hand experience keeping both those fish together, I'd love to hear more.!



Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

 

[lionfish300]

do you think 220 is large enough for 10 Idol?

 

[trembz]

If I'm dedicating the tank primarily to that, I think itll be okay...
I've had multiple tangs, Angel's and triggers in a 250 that was only 5' long rather than 6' for a few years without issue ... I know the fish are not the same but in terms of stock capacity I think my tank will be okay to accommodate them

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

 

[Michael Hoaster]

This sounds awesome! At first. I love schools.

A quick check suggests juvenile moorish idols would likely school. I've never seen juveniles offered myself. Unfortunately they don't form harems, which could work, but they pair up and males get aggressive. Getting five males would likely be trouble. So adding ten looks risky to me, in that size tank. With your interest in other fish as well, it may be smarter to get just a pair.

A better choice for a great schooler is the Heniochus butterfly.

 

[hkgar]

My lfs will be receiving the idols sometime in April and hold them for me aside in a holding/QT tank .. so they will have been qt'ed for a little over a month prior to me bringing them home.

Will they be the exclusive occupants in the holding tank? Will other fish be introduced to the holding tank?

If they have Ick, or if Ick was in the holding tank you may not know. During the active on the fish stage the noted white spots are not always visible. I do not QT but will never introduce a fish to my tank without doing TTM

Anything else is playing Russian Roulette with your tank. I was lucky for seven years but ultimately got a tank wiped out. (9 of 10 dead)

 

[ThRoewer]

I would try to get the idols as small as possible. Ideal world be to get juveniles. Larger specimen are more set in their ways and less likely to adapt to tank life.
Also, I would imagine with juveniles you have a better chance of them getting along without serious fighting...

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[trembz]

I would try to get the idols as small as possible. Ideal world be to get juveniles. Larger specimen are more set in their ways and less likely to adapt to tank life.
Also, I would imagine with juveniles you have a better chance of them getting along without serious fighting...

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

So when I asked them regarding the size of what I could select they said it's either between "small-medium" or "medium-large"
But it's always what you get in the shipment, so it is what it is..(obviously)

The smallest I think I've ever seen them, must have been maybe 3.5" head to tail and 3" top to bottom.. I dont really know if that would be considered juvenile?

I plan on adding them 2-3 days before adding my current fish I'm bringing over.
That way they can settle in for a few days before adding my 8" Naso in .

Do they switch sex as the more dominant ones as they mature or are they born already male & female ?

For rock work I'm thinking minimal, I know they like to swim, so ideally I'll give them the most room to dart from left to right as possible without interruption


Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

 

[ThRoewer]

Some reading material:

Zanclus cornutus Linnaeus, 1758

This is an article you definitely want to read:

Non-anonymous, collective territoriality in a fish, the Moorish Idol (Zanclus cornutus): agonistic and appeasement behaviors

It is a behavioral observation report, made by Konrad Lorenz, of a group of Zanclus he kept in his 32k liter "reef" tank (4m x 4m x 2m / 13ft x 13ft x 6.5ft) in the late 1970s. Very detailed and particularly focused on social behavior in a group. This article should be a must-read for anyone attempting to do what you are trying. The PDF contains the original German text as well as an English version and a number of rather unrelated behavioral science articles.

Something on the larva development - may not be of direct relevance but interesting no less:

Larvae of the Moorish idol, Zanclus cornutus, including a comparison with other larval acanthuroids

This is an observation report where Zanclus are found on reefs (Maldives in this case but should apply in general):

Moorish idol, Zanclus cornutus, distribution among coral reef habitats in the Republic of Maldives

 

[ThRoewer]

do you think 220 is large enough for 10 Idol?

It's probably way too small. Konrad Lorenz kept successfully 7 in a 32000 liter (~8500 gallons) tank (see article link in the previous post). He actually deemed a 2700 liter (~700 gallons) tank as too small for 7, let alone 10.

 

[Dmorty217]

It's probably way too small. Konrad Lorenz kept successfully 7 in a 32000 liter (~8500 gallons) tank (see article link in the previous post). He actually deemed a 2700 liter (~700 gallons) tank as too small for 7, let alone 10.

+1 This CAN be done but a 220g is way too small for 10, I would argue its too small for 2 together

 

[trembz]

+1 This CAN be done but a 220g is way too small for 10, I would argue its too small for 2 together

Do you see it being too small due to the habits of this specific fish or due to the quantity?

How or why, is keeping the 10 Idols different than keeping 10 or more similar sized fish together? (Unless you tell me it's due to the aggression between same family species)

I'll definitely give that article a read tonight!


If its really that ill advised ill change it up somewhat.. plan B

Would a group of 3 Idols + a group of 5 pyramid butterfly's or some other butterfly work better?
My concern with a small group is one becoming too dominant and bullying the others till death. I felt the large group would spread the aggression out and not 1 specific Idol would be singed out.

I'm not interested in a heniochus to replace the Idols

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

 

[ThRoewer]

Do you see it being too small due to the habits of this specific fish or due to the quantity?

How or why, is keeping the 10 Idols different than keeping 10 or more similar sized fish together? (Unless you tell me it's due to the aggression between same family species)

I'll definitely give that article a read tonight!


If its really that ill advised ill change it up somewhat.. plan B

Would a group of 3 Idols + a group of 5 pyramid butterfly's or some other butterfly work better?
My concern with a small group is one becoming too dominant and bullying the others till death. I felt the large group would spread the aggression out and not 1 specific Idol would be singed out.

I'm not interested in a heniochus to replace the Idols

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

You should really read the behavioral article I linked above!
These fish are territorial and a 220 tank is at best large enough for 2 if they are a pair. If you put 10 in there you are likely to lose most of them if not all.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Dmorty217]

Do you see it being too small due to the habits of this specific fish or due to the quantity?

How or why, is keeping the 10 Idols different than keeping 10 or more similar sized fish together? (Unless you tell me it's due to the aggression between same family species)

I'll definitely give that article a read tonight!


If its really that ill advised ill change it up somewhat.. plan B

Would a group of 3 Idols + a group of 5 pyramid butterfly's or some other butterfly work better?
My concern with a small group is one becoming too dominant and bullying the others till death. I felt the large group would spread the aggression out and not 1 specific Idol would be singed out.

I'm not interested in a heniochus to replace the Idols

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

They're territorial and if they aren't a pair or there isn't a large group in a very large tank they will slowly pick one another off. Getting them to all eat would be a huge challenge in itself in the right setting, let alone when they're all bullying one another. I like your overall idea but I don't think you have enough room for a group. There are several others on here that have tried this with no luck and their tanks were around the 200g mark. It always ends up with one in the sump.

 

[ThRoewer]

They're territorial and if they aren't a pair or there isn't a large group in a very large tank they will slowly pick one another off. Getting them to all eat would be a huge challenge in itself in the right setting, let alone when they're all bullying one another. I like your overall idea but I don't think you have enough room for a group. There are several others on here that have tried this with no luck and their tanks were around the 200g mark. It always ends up with one in the sump.

Yeah, you need about 1000 gallons per individual. Less will not work.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[trembz]

They're territorial and if they aren't a pair or there isn't a large group in a very large tank they will slowly pick one another off. Getting them to all eat would be a huge challenge in itself in the right setting, let alone when they're all bullying one another. I like your overall idea but I don't think you have enough room for a group. There are several others on here that have tried this with no luck and their tanks were around the 200g mark. It always ends up with one in the sump.

I read the article provided (thank you)
In your opinion, would you start with 2 or 3 instead? 2 might cause fighting between both, and 3 of them comes with the same risks of bullying/death.

In the article provided I dont see mention of any other fish in the tank with the Idols (perhaps I missed it)
Would a tank JUST of moorish idols not present more aggression amongst them?
Oppose to other fish being in the tank and cutting their direct line of view of the other Idols.

I'm in no way married to the idea of getting the 10x idols, I just want to answer all possibilities before moving on to plan B

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

 

[trembz]

Yeah, you need about 1000 gallons per individual. Less will not work.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Thanks for the article... greatly appreciated..

1000g for 1 Idol?!?

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

 

[ThRoewer]

I read the article provided (thank you)
In your opinion, would you start with 2 or 3 instead? 2 might cause fighting between both, and 3 of them comes with the same risks of bullying/death.

In the article provided I dont see mention of any other fish in the tank with the Idols (perhaps I missed it)
Would a tank JUST of moorish idols not present more aggression amongst them?
Oppose to other fish being in the tank and cutting their direct line of view of the other Idols.

I'm in no way married to the idea of getting the 10x idols, I just want to answer all possibilities before moving on to plan B

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

Konrad Lorenz kept a lot of other fish in there, especially butterfly and angel fish (as far as I remember from other mentionig in German reef tank literature). I think if you Google it you should be able to find more info on that tank and it's inhabitants.

I would try at the most 2 and only if I could get juveniles. And even in that case I would only put them together into the tank once they are acclimated and eating.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Dmorty217]

Thanks for the article... greatly appreciated..

1000g for 1 Idol?!?

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

That's a conservative number... here is what I can tell you I have 13 fish in my 625g and they're all aggressive in their own right. I had a Moorish in the tank before and it did fine other than being bullied by and bullying my tangs. No way I would of tried for a second one.

 

[trembz]

Konrad Lorenz kept a lot of other fish in there, especially butterfly and angel fish (as far as I remember from other mentionig in German reef tank literature). I think if you Google it you should be able to find more info on that tank and it's inhabitants.

I would try at the most 2 and only if I could get juveniles. And even in that case I would only put them together into the tank once they are acclimated and eating.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Is there a way to sex females from males as juveniles?
If I get the pair I'd opt for 1 of each
And is there any way to know what size is considered juvenile?
I've never seen a tiny or even a moorish idol I'd consider "very small" .

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

 

[trembz]

That's a conservative number... here is what I can tell you I have 13 fish in my 625g and they're all aggressive in their own right. I had a Moorish in the tank before and it did fine other than being bullied by and bullying my tangs. No way I would of tried for a second one.

Understood...
Which is why I'm getting rid of my Angel's and tangs except for 1 of each.
I've witnessed my yellow tang slash a moorish as soon as it entered followed up by being basically chewed on by my Emperor angel right after.
In my tank I also have a chevron who killed a newly added Sohal within 2 days .

So I do expect some aggression no matter what I keep. I'm just looking to reduce it as much as possible to give the moorish every possible chance of survival .

220 may not work after all.

Any suggestions of butterfly that enjoy schooling and are rather passive with other species? I do intend to get 1 or 2 idols still, so something that doesnt get rather large .
Thanks


Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk