STN- what to do

[shroutk3]

Hey everyone, I'm going to try to keep this short but detailed. I moved the tank 6 weeks ago, in the process basically going 80% new water.

alk- 2.6 meql
calc- 450
ph 7.8 (stable)
Ammonia, Nitrate- 0

Tank is 40 br with 20 sump. Octo 110 skimmer, brs carbon reactor, modded mj, k2, return, and mj1200 for flow. 4 bulb tek fixture, approximately 13 months on the bulbs (old I know).

For the past 3 weeks, my birdsnest, red planet, and 2 unknown acros have been bleaching and losing tissue. My alk was around 5 dkh, but I've had it up to 7-7.5 for about a week now (using baking soda). I have a pink lemonade and thompsons milli that are unafftected. Monti's don't seem happy though.

2 weeks ago I noticed red bugs, and treated with interceptor immediately (24 hours, then skimmer and carbon)- no red bugs or pods seen since.

So it seems like a lot of problems. I'm going to attach pics and hope someone can help me narrow it down and/or give suggestions.

Things that don't seem to mind whatever is happening: rics, rbta, gbta, all euphylias, zoas

any help is appreciated- On a side note, I'm extremely limited budget wise, So suggestions that don't involve a ton of money is what I'm hoping for lol


thanks

 

[cardiffgiant]

Sorry to hear this. It looks like some nice corals were impacted.

I'm not sure what to do about the orals that have tissue recession. I've not had many corals rebound from that. One birds nest surprised me and came back from the dead when I trimmed a small healthy piece away from the dying colony.

My experience is that problems that result from a single alkalinity swing can take some time to overcome. How slowly did you raise alkalinity? Are oyu mixing the baking soda with RO first or just adding it to the tank? How are you testing it?

How frequently are you testing your ph? If you are raising alk with unbaked baking soda, you could be causing temporary ph increases. I would test ph before and after supplementing alk to be sure. If you are seeing an increase in ph, try baking the baking soda at 400 degrees for an hour before mixing it with RO (I bake one small box per gallon of water).

 

[oneradtek202]

okay i havebeen going threw this myself and the best bet it to keep ur alk stable and frag off healthy tissue and super glue the cut. then remount and keep ur parameters stable. thats all you can do

 

[shroutk3]

I did just make some emergency frags- they're small though as healthy branches were hard to find which is depressing. I took 3 days to raise the alk up (baking soda mixed with RO)- I dripped it over like a half hour on each of three nights.

The other thing to mention is that my coralline growth sucks/ has been receding.

Thanks for the comments so far

Tim

 

[oneradtek202]

i have had the same issue for a long time and its due to alk. Your necrosis looks more rapid than slow, mine has been receding for awhile now and slowly eating away at my bases of my colonies .

also, the redbugs might have been there longer than u when u noticed them. my corals took a huge hit when i got infected with them atone point. i was always wondering why my corals were coloring up the way the should have been

i feel your pain! if at some point you can get some spare cash, pick up some drews dosers from bulk reef supply , that should help you out, it did me

 

[shroutk3]

So its an alk stability issue? any reason the milli's wouldn't also be effected?

 

[oneradtek202]

some of my corals are affected and some arent. its weird.

but the redbugs DEFINITELY did some damage and i would say was the majority of your issue probably. the acros with necrosis on the acro branches and a spot here and there look like red bug damage


My STN

alk swing damage IMO

Red bug damage IMO

 

[pascal32]

thanks Brandon - i recently took similar damage, now you have me worried about red bugs! Slight alkalinity swing after changing light schedule which gave tremendous increase in growth that I didn't keep up with, doesn't take much!

 

[oneradtek202]

EH, what do i know lol

 

[pascal32]

EH, what do i know lol

more than I do

shroutk3 - sorry I'm of no help! :sad2:

 

[tmz]

StN and rtn are complicated and no one knows for sure what causes them.
My bet would go to low alkalinity or some form of alkainity shift based on anecdotal observations and my experience,.A close second would be high PO4. Both a lack of alkalinity and high PO4 can inhibit calciification causeng significant stress. Third, I'd think about metals particularly with new salt mix since free metals may not have had a chance to be organically bound and thus detoxified or something may have been stirred up in the move.. Fourth , hypoxic conditions due to flow patterns in the area of the affected coral(s) could be a problem.

I agree that fraging is a good move. Be sure to cut a quarter inch or more into apparently healthy tissue. I have some very nice colonies that came back from small frags from a mini crash a couple of years ago whcih ocured after precipitating calcium carbonate because of an accidental kalk overdose of unsettled ,ie cloudy kalwasser... but it took a year.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

looks like Brandon gave some good opinions. It would seem that alkalinity and/or bugs are to blame for what we're seeing in the pix.

 

[shroutk3]

So how likely is it that these colonies may recover if given stable alk and no more bugs?

Also, is it worth fragging off those bad branches or is that not going to help any?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

given the right conditions these corals are among the fastest growing.
recovery can be remarkably quick.

If they had a motto for life it would be "live fast and die young".

 

[shroutk3]

That give me hope.

On a more pessimistic note: I was just away for the weekend and while I was gone it seems my alk dropped about 1.5 dkh. Is there anything I can do to maintain higher alk while I'm away from the tank and 2 part is not an option?

Does kalk in my topoff water boost alk?

Also, These swings never seemed to happen until I moved the tank. Could my large numbers of euphilia (half the space in my tank) be causing these swings? Or is it that I switched from instant ocean to the oceanic salt?

Thanks again,
Tim

 

[frofan]

The alk change was most likely the difference between the salts. IO has a starting alk level of 11, where Oceanic's is around 8. You can adjust the alkalinity of the salt while mixing it with sodium bicarbonate (Baking Soda).

Kalk will help stabalize the alk swings. It is best to dose the topoff kalk over a few hours if possible.

 

[tmz]

Alkalinity downward shifts can occur from:
a large water change with a salt of lower alkalinity.
a build up of acids in the tank such as occurs from an incomplete nitrogen cycle and the buildup of nitrate.
consumption by calcifying organisms (corals, coraline, etc) .

The ratio of carbonate alkainity to calcium added with limewater is the same as with balanced 2 part or a calcium reactor ,ie 1 calcium ion for 1 carbonate ion.

This is the ratio at which corals and other calcifying organisms use it.However, alkalinity in the ranges we measure shows more significant decreases than calcium even though it and calcium are added in the same ratio calcifying organisms use them. This is because the reservoir of calcium in salt water is much greater than the alkainity. Using all the calcium in nsw(420 ppm) would use about 21 meq/l( 58.8 dkh)of alkalinty. A 20ppm consumption of calcium will result in a decrease of 1meq/l alkalinity(2.8 dkh).Maintaining alkalinity sometimes requires additional supplements of just the alkalinity part but generally more dosing of both parts is needed.



Regarding Kalk:
Kalk( limewater) is calcium hydroxide CaOH2. The 2 OH- does several things including increasing crabonate alkalinity.(the type of alkalinity calcareous organisms use):

It joins with H+ leaving H2O and thus removes H+(acidic) increasing ph.

It joins with CO2 leaving CaCO3 carbonate, which is carbonate alkalinity. The extra carbonate and CO2 depletion also have ph raising effects as; the CO2 limits the formation of carbonic acid when CO2 is mixed with water ;and the extra CO3 (carbonate ) will adsorb H+ as some of it turns to HCO3( bicarbonate).

The amount of limewater you can dose is limited by your top off needs, the limitations of kalk solubility( a max of 2tsps per gallon will remain in solution) and the ph raisng effects,. The maximum recommended for any given hour is 1/4 tsp of kalk powder(lime) per 50 gallons of system water volume.