Stray voltage and HLLE

[JHemdal]

mhltcob,

I have not yet gotten the hang of Windows Vista - I just spent 15 minutes typing a most eloquent rebutal to your last post and as I was checking a fact, I hit "close all tabs" by mistake and all my wonderful arguments evaporated into the ether. It has been too long of a day for me to try and ressurect that post so I'm sorry, but you will never know how right I was(grin).

I do have one question for you. If I wrote, "I bet Ilze would take your side of this argument" would that make sense to you? Just a wild guess.....

JHemdal

 

[kevin2000]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12183247#post12183247 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
For that matter total reliance on a GFCI isn't always a good idea either

While I would agree that "total" covers alot of territory .. I hope your not trying to imply that using a GFI is inappropriate. From my perspective running SW tank without a GFI is inappropriate.

The probe did keep me from getting shocked on contact with the water, however, it didn't help me when I touched a pump that turned out to have a leaky power cord.

?? and if you got shocked by your TV next to the aquarium you would imply that GFI and grounding probes did not protect you?

Having both a grounding probe combine with a GFI is something that helps protect the aquarist and should be high on the "to do" list.

 

[mhltcob]

Jay,

I agree with most of what you have to say and at this point am really debating semantics, as I would have gone down the same road as you (in terms of repetitive carbon addition/removal and altering protocols thereafter). I realize it is not practical in most cases to run a full blown study. I was more or less wondering if a study was out there where I could look at its experimental design.

"I bet Ilze would take your side of this argument would that make sense to you"

-Yes, very good guess (out of a half dozen places or so nonetheless), but I am not sure she would take my side of the argument

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12185159#post12185159 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kevin2000

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12183247#post12183247 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
For that matter total reliance on a GFCI isn't always a good idea either

While I would agree that "total" covers alot of territory .. I hope your not trying to imply that using a GFI is inappropriate. From my perspective running SW tank without a GFI is inappropriate.

The probe did keep me from getting shocked on contact with the water, however, it didn't help me when I touched a pump that turned out to have a leaky power cord.

?? and if you got shocked by your TV next to the aquarium you would imply that GFI and grounding probes did not protect you?

Having both a grounding probe combine with a GFI is something that helps protect the aquarist and should be high on the "to do" list.

I'm definately not saying GFCI's are a bad idea. I'm saying it's bad to place complete faith in such man made devices Also pointing out that a ground probe will not save you from being shocked

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I would agree completely with Jay that the "leap of faith" between stray voltage and HLLE is a rather incredulous connection to make. I worked at a LFS one time that could've powered a small city with the amount of voltage going through the tanks, and some long term residents (fish that couldnt sell), showed absolutely no sign of HLLE. Personally, I think HLLE has a lot to do with water chemistry/parameters more than anything. I ahve seen SO MANY cases of HLLE in Red sea fish that are kept in relatively, if not absolute, hyposaline conditions. In fact, far too many for me to disregard it as coincidence.

But, Jay, c'mon, are you really claiming that because its printed, its true?! Surely, there are validated checks for print as compared to online, but I can show you several books about this hobby that contradict each other completely! So, lets not get into a "well a fact checker looked at it, so its true" argument!

 

[JHemdal]

jmaneyapanda,

Sorry if this post sounds terse, but I'm kinda tiring of this thread, and it has split into a couple different directions. I don't know about other books, but most of mine have gone through an amazingly intense process of editing and review - my only point was that there is a series of checks and balances for books. I'm not interested in defending somebody else's body of work - sure there is junk out there, but look at what got me started on this topic - an unedited, incorrect and unsafe response from a person here on RC. The only "editor" here is peer pressure, and that process can easily fail.
Until you have taken a book from conceptual idea to holding the bound book in your hand, (easily 2 to 5 years) you simply won't know all the effort that goes into a mainstream published title. Notice I added that caveat - there are self-published books (like my first one) that totally lack this oversight.
Look, I have examples of peer reviewed garbage - there are two notably ones on the topic of HLLE alone - I don't have the first citation 'cause I tossed it out years ago, but it was the journal article from a women "proving" that HLLE in Centropyge was caused by a virus - that has been completely debunked, and then the pseudo-scientifc study about Vitamin C by Blasiola was flawed in its implementation. My own 1989 paper on a possible bacterial cause was later invalidated (but it did document the first reported instance of acute HLLE, something many people still aren't aware of).
Look at it as sort of a "95%" sort of thing. I can get it right about 95% of the time by working "off the cuff". I could spend 5 to 10 times the amount of effort and be right 98% of the time (e.g. through peer reviewed journals). I prefer the former route - it is quicker and gives me more opportunity to work on a wider variety of topics.


JHemdal

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12192882#post12192882 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
jmaneyapanda,

Sorry if this post sounds terse, but I'm kinda tiring of this thread, and it has split into a couple different directions. I don't know about other books, but most of mine have gone through an amazingly intense process of editing and review - my only point was that there is a series of checks and balances for books. I'm not interested in defending somebody else's body of work - sure there is junk out there, but look at what got me started on this topic - an unedited, incorrect and unsafe response from a person here on RC. The only "editor" here is peer pressure, and that process can easily fail.
Until you have taken a book from conceptual idea to holding the bound book in your hand, (easily 2 to 5 years) you simply won't know all the effort that goes into a mainstream published title. Notice I added that caveat - there are self-published books (like my first one) that totally lack this oversight.
Look, I have examples of peer reviewed garbage - there are two notably ones on the topic of HLLE alone - I don't have the first citation 'cause I tossed it out years ago, but it was the journal article from a women "proving" that HLLE in Centropyge was caused by a virus - that has been completely debunked, and then the pseudo-scientifc study about Vitamin C by Blasiola was flawed in its implementation. My own 1989 paper on a possible bacterial cause was later invalidated (but it did document the first reported instance of acute HLLE, something many people still aren't aware of).
Look at it as sort of a "95%" sort of thing. I can get it right about 95% of the time by working "off the cuff". I could spend 5 to 10 times the amount of effort and be right 98% of the time (e.g. through peer reviewed journals). I prefer the former route - it is quicker and gives me more opportunity to work on a wider variety of topics.


JHemdal

I wouldnt disagree with anything you have said. I guess, I owe an apology, as I see how my comments couldve eben taken as a slap at your credentials and effeorts. This is not my intention. It simply appeared to me that you had pretexted yuo statemnet with a comment such as [sic] "Dont pay attention to the internet, pay attention to books, because they are checked, and therefore, always accuarte". As we both will agree, this is poppycock (I just wanted to say that word), and certainly tehre are varying levels of integrity in the publishing world.

 

[niles1967]

OK guys, this is a little off topic but this is the only thread on HLLE I could find. I had a leaking toilet in my home that wasn't discovered right away and sure enough it was dripping into my basement tank. I noticed that every fish (tangs and large angels) all had the raised nerve going down the sides. The ammonia in my tank had spiked to almost 3ppm. I remedied the situation quickly and now one month later the lines are still there but less visible. How long before they go away?

Also to promote this discussion: I dont use carbon and there is no stray voltage in my tank (I checked with a volt probe). It seems clear to me that the toilet water was the culprit. Also, the only fish in my tank that didnt get HLLE was my huma trigger. Any idea why not?

 

[Percula9]

Trigger just more hardy and could tolerate a lower water quality than the othewrs. Did the fish exhibit any head pitting or only lateral line problems? Try some vitamin soaked Nori seaweed for the tangs and angels, this may clear up whats left. HLLE is a perplexing disorder, whether this is what your fish had is hard to say, Thank god you discovered the problem and fixed it. I think HLLE happens as a result of a combination of factors that occur inside your tank. So far nobody has proved one way or another specifically the cause.


P.S What part of New York? I grew up in Brooklyn.

 

[niles1967]

My 10" blue faced angel and my 9" blue ring angel both also had some head pitting and minor scale loss but this has healed. My 3" magestic suffered the most and lost almost all the scales around his head and he did not survive. Scientific or not, I am a believer that poor water quality was definitely the cause. What other factors could there possibly be?

 

[niles1967]

Sorry.. born in Brooklyn, raised in Queens, now live in Nassau.

 

[Percula9]

The other factor I think is just poor nutrition. We may not know all the things the animal gets in its natural environment. Though we do our best to recreate it in captivity.

 

[jimwat]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12211029#post12211029 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by niles1967
OK guys, this is a little off topic but this is the only thread on HLLE I could find. I had a leaking toilet in my home that wasn't discovered right away and sure enough it was dripping into my basement tank. I noticed that every fish (tangs and large angels) all had the raised nerve going down the sides. The ammonia in my tank had spiked to almost 3ppm. I remedied the situation quickly and now one month later the lines are still there but less visible. How long before they go away?

So who's volunteering to do the cause and effect of toilet water on a reef tank study?