Sudden Death ***?

[DanangMonkey]

Last night lost my Long-Nose Butterfly .... Stone cold Dead ... Still had his color, and no external sign of injury or illness

Had him in QT for 8 days. QT is a 10 GAL (ya I know its small) running an oversized Aqueon 75GAL Power Filter. QT also had a airstone. The Power Filter was seeded with biomedia and sponges from my DT.

There was a small problem with the increased bioload which was causing a small increase in NH3 on a daily basis, but I had it under control. I was checking NH3 three times a day, and accomplishing a 10% WC DAILY! Highest the NH3 would raise to was 1.5ppm after a full 32 hours at which time I would add a little of Kent Detox (followed dosage to the letter), after which I would re-test and validate that NH3 had returned to zero. This step was repeated for the last 4 days (including last night). The rest of the parameters were stable -N02=0, N03=0, Sal=1.024, Temp =79.5F.

The fish had good color, no spots or blemishes of any kind, and would eat like a champ (Including the night before he died). Right up to last night his activity level was normal, would even swim over to the glass when he saw me and was begging for food. I was concerned about effects from the detox treatment, so I was being carefull to watch for ANY signs of distress, and neved detected ANYTHING from either his physical appearance or behaviour.

Can anyone fill me in on possible causes??? I even tested the water with my voltmeter suspecting a short from the heater, still nothing??

Yes Yes Yes I Know ---- 10 GAL was too small for a QT, and I should have ensured the tank was cycled enough to support the bioload... However, none of these seem to explain the VERY sudden death....

PS Post-Death NH3 was normal

Appreciate any responses

 

[mchammer]

Ammonia is what I would check for. I don't think a 10 gallon tank is too small for just one fish of that size. You can keep most any fish in a small QT for short periods of time i.e. 4 weeks without much harm. The water changes should have taken care of the ammonia but you never know unless you test for it. I don't think anyone can tell you the reason for a sudden death without seeing first hand the conditions the fish was in. Sorry for your loss.

 

[DanangMonkey]

Ammonia is what I would check for. I don't think a 10 gallon tank is too small for just one fish of that size. You can keep most any fish in a small QT for short periods of time i.e. 4 weeks without much harm. The water changes should have taken care of the ammonia but you never know unless you test for it. I don't think anyone can tell you the reason for a sudden death without seeing first hand the conditions the fish was in. Sorry for your loss.

Hammertime.... Yup, I knew I had a problem with cycling so was watching ammonia like a hawk... as stated in OP, was checking ammonia 3-4 times a day, including after I treated with detox. Not saying that ammonia couldnt have caused this, but never saw a spike beyond 2 ppm, and even that spike was treated within a few hours.... ALL the water used in the WC's was from my own RODI.

It was just weird that I never saw ANY signs of distress or illness, it was like watching a healthy athlete keel over and die suddenly from a heart attack.

 

[DanangMonkey]

Anyone??

 

[HumbleFish]

Highest the NH3 would raise to was 1.5ppm after a full 32 hours at which time I would add a little of Kent Detox

Were you treating with something? Copper can give you a false pos ammonia reading. If not, 1.5 ppm ammonia is unbelievably high (0.5 ppm is considered toxic). Even if you got it down, the fish was still exposed to it for a little while. And LNB are not the hardiest fish. Did you notice any redness (ammonia burn) around the gills??

 

[triggreef]

Were you treating with something? Copper can give you a false pos ammonia reading. If not, 1.5 ppm ammonia is unbelievably high (0.5 ppm is considered toxic). Even if you got it down, the fish was still exposed to it for a little while. And LNB are not the hardiest fish. Did you notice any redness (ammonia burn) around the gills??

this^ & what were you testing it with?

 

[DanangMonkey]

Were you treating with something? Copper can give you a false pos ammonia reading. If not, 1.5 ppm ammonia is unbelievably high (0.5 ppm is considered toxic). Even if you got it down, the fish was still exposed to it for a little while. And LNB are not the hardiest fish. Did you notice any redness (ammonia burn) around the gills??

SOOOOOORY...that was .15 ammonia, not 1.5 !!!!!!!!!!!


No, I was not treating with ANYTHING other than the ammo detox, and that was only dosed at a minimal level once every 36 hours.

Never saw ANY indications of distress, either in behaviour or physical....

I lost a previous fish last year (different QT gear), so was keeping a extremely close watch for any type of distress or illness.

 

[Triton_Z]

I agree it's unlikely the ammonia level killed the fish. It's difficult to say what happened given the information provided.

I would sterilize your QT gear and tank and throw out the Kent Detox just in case it went bad or fouled. I've read of some causes of some bad or dated Seachem Prime nuking fish, but have not experienced any negative effects in my own use.

Sorry for your loss.

 

[DanangMonkey]

I agree it's unlikely the ammonia level killed the fish. It's difficult to say what happened given the information provided.

I would sterilize your QT gear and tank and throw out the Kent Detox just in case it went bad or fouled. I've read of some causes of some bad or dated Seachem Prime nuking fish, but have not experienced any negative effects in my own use.

Sorry for your loss.

Triton... Thanks...

One question I have always wanted answered is how to dose NH3 Detox directly to a small QT??

Although the detox is rapidly absorbed into the tank water, its still at full strength when first poured into the tank and could provide a possible lethal dose if a fish chugged it down at full strength. I tried pouring it into the power filter so it would be churned and spread out more evenly, but only had limited success.

ALso tried pouring it direct in the tank "away" from the fish, but the fish thought it was feeding time and would rise to the top and follow my hand movements.

Considered pre-mixing the detox in a 1 gal jug, and then pouring that into the tank. However some chemicals disperse in different ways, and the DETOX could just bond to the jug water and then later fail to provide a second bonding when poured back in the tank. I dont understand the chemical mechanisms of the DETOX, and there isn't any tech data on thier website as to the dispersion and bonding process.

 

[keithhays]

What were you testing ammonia with?

 

[DanangMonkey]

I tasted it with a spoon
, just kidding


Salifert & API test kit ..... I use both "IF" one detects anything outside of "normal" for critical parameters such as NH3. May be overkill, but it provides a control test in case one of the results gets skewed due to contamination of the test vial or a procedural mistake. I stay away from any type of test strip as they often provide false negatives which is dangerous

 

[saltyair]

I had this issue with a pbt in QT - from my research I highly suspected that it died of cyanide poison.

if the fish seemed fine even ate - than died (did it eat?) but no color loss or had brighter colors when it died. It possibly could have been caught using cyanide. Were did you get the fish?

I did find out a few weeks latter that the lfs had an issue with almost every fish they got.

 

[DanangMonkey]

I had this issue with a pbt in QT - from my research I highly suspected that it died of cyanide poison.

if the fish seemed fine even ate - than died (did it eat?) but no color loss or had brighter colors when it died. It possibly could have been caught using cyanide. Were did you get the fish?

I did find out a few weeks latter that the lfs had an issue with almost every fish they got.

Salty... I suspected cyanide, but wanted to hear from someone more experienced.... The Long Nosed Bfly had a normal-good appetite up to hours before death, had good color, and no other abrasions, lesions, or anything..

There were a few times during the 7 days when he did display some odd behaviour such as dashing around the tank and moving back in forth in one spot as if he was disoriented. I suspected NH3 spike and distress, but it checked normal and his behaviour would return to normal after a few minutes. Since water parameters checked out I was concerned there was some type of poison that was effecting his brain or some other internal organ.


and the smoking gun, it came from a big box store....The LFS's and even DD/LiveAquaria were out of LNB's, so decided to take a risk. Keep in mind that I kept low expectations, and didnt expect him to last past the first few days....However...expected to see Ich or some other type of disease. After a week went by and he looked perfectly healthy I considered myself lucky that I had obtained an actual healthy fish from a big box.... Then the odds ran out suddenly.

 

[keithhays]

Just because you didn't see a disease, doesn't mean it wasn't there even for ich. Whatever is most likely to be true probably is which in the states is probably disease, but it could be cyanide where you are. Is this something that is prevalent in your area?

 

[DanangMonkey]

Just because you didn't see a disease, doesn't mean it wasn't there even for ich. Whatever is most likely to be true probably is which in the states is probably disease, but it could be cyanide where you are. Is this something that is prevalent in your area?

I realize that not all diseases are apparent from a visual standpoint, I was only noting that the speed of death without any external indicators may reflect some type of toxin that was ingested during capture/harvest and remained dormant for a period. Its all just conjecture and theory without an autopsy...


No, Viet Nam does not have a problem with Cyanide, but some of the areas around Da Nang are contaminated with Tetrachlorodibenzodioxin AKA Orange Crush AKA Herbicide Orange (HO) AKA Agent Orange . The EPA is assisting in the detoxification and cleanup around the Da Nang airport as we speak.

 

[angelfish boy]

I have had lots of ammonia spikes in my older tanks when I first started. If the ammonia was rising, you would have seen a significant difference in the fish'es breathing pattern.( Going to the top of the tank, bumping into glass.....) IMHO the fish probably had a internal parasite.

 

[keithhays]

I realize that not all diseases are apparent from a visual standpoint, I was only noting that the speed of death without any external indicators may reflect some type of toxin that was ingested during capture/harvest and remained dormant for a period. Its all just conjecture and theory without an autopsy...


No, Viet Nam does not have a problem with Cyanide, but some of the areas around Da Nang are contaminated with Tetrachlorodibenzodioxin AKA Orange Crush AKA Herbicide Orange (HO) AKA Agent Orange . The EPA is assisting in the detoxification and cleanup around the Da Nang airport as we speak.

In that case, I would assume something more benign than cyanide. Some years ago the Philippines had a reputation for catching many fish with cyanide. I found this article on the effects of cyanide on fish, which would help you recognize it and avoid that vendor:
http://sabella.mba.ac.uk/800/01/The_effect_of_cyanides_on_the_gill_colour_of_fish.pdf

 

[DanangMonkey]

In that case, I would assume something more benign than cyanide. Some years ago the Philippines had a reputation for catching many fish with cyanide. I found this article on the effects of cyanide on fish, which would help you recognize it and avoid that vendor:
http://sabella.mba.ac.uk/800/01/The_effect_of_cyanides_on_the_gill_colour_of_fish.pdf

Very interesting article, thanks.... Although the article focuses on freshwater trout the physiological effects on the soft tissues of saltwater species should be similar

It's notable that oxgen deficiency was marked by a darkening of the gill area, however that was not the case with my fish.

Cyanide poisoning was marked by a lightening of the same gill area. This would be difficult to detect in my case as the gills were a very bright shade of yellow possibly masking the problem. It's a possibility, but impossible to confirm without viewing the fish real-time. The fish was purchased from a big box store that may not be fussy about their live fish supply chain (and the third-fourth-fifth party suppliers).