rogergolf66
im an addict lol
This is what i have so far
sump design help
- Thread starter rogergolf66
- Start date
Reefpilot11
New member
Nice and simple I like it.
St Pete John
New member
I think he meant 18"
I only filter my primary drain side also, my "emergency" drain is always wet but no filters.
I only filter my primary drain side also, my "emergency" drain is always wet but no filters.
rogergolf66
im an addict lol
U can see in side view it's external pump. It will be a dart.
Protein skimmer is external type skimmer this is it below.
Yes 8 inches of water is the plan but it will be 9 or so by the time the water goes through. The side of the sump that doesn't have the filter will be filtered by refuge. I'm considering feeding the skimmer from that drain. The skimmer drain will not drain into the fuge it will drain to the middle of the sump.
Keep questions coming. I need to improve it. This was the first draft. I'm looking for mistakes. I'm sure it can be improved.
rogergolf66
im an addict lol
I am leaving the water level low as I may add a few systems to this sump so I would need room when the pump if off as I don't like check valves.
Ted_C
Active member
I tried this design on my 120 when I first started out - with a fuge on the right with a separate slow feed.
When I started considering what I wanted to accomplish with a fuge - mostly elimination of nitrates and phosphates - and the design of this - it could never be efficient and do what I wanted. I also had problems balancing the slow feed to the fuge - but that was short sighted design problems in the plumbing on my part.
Let's say you are sending 10% of your overflow water to your fuge. That means the other 90% is going through your socks and your skimmer. That 10% of the split overflow "may be" treated up to 100% for removal of nitrates and phosphates - but you've still got that other 90% that's circulating back and forth between display and sump - it's still getting re-polluted from the display.
I think what you'll find with a fuge area is it will become stuffed full of gunk and detritus It may generate more nitrates and phosphates than it will remove.
I was so stuck on a fuge - I went and changed my design around so that 100% of the overflow water would be processed by the skimmer then to the fuge - then to the return. Again - another bad idea on my part. I had a 5" sandbed and did indeed have 0 nitrates and very low phosphates - but that thing was a beast to clean. I ended up taking it all out in the end.
So it really depends on what purpose you think you may be getting from the fuge whether you want to try this or not. If you want to grow mangroves or something - just to see them grow - then I think it's a pretty cool idea. If you think it's going to help with nutrient reduction with sand beds and/or miracle mud or something like that - I think it's a bad idea. If it's a true fuge because you want to keep a mandarain or something and you've got need for pods circulating the tank - it's also iffy. I had very little transfer of critters from sump to display tank.
I've totally changed my way of thinking based on John and Chris' advice and thoughts - filter socks, skimmer thats about it for equipment in the fuge.
Also 72" wide? I'm assuming you've got the available dimensions under the stand for 72" of length? or are you going external?
That's an interesting design you have for the center return pump section. However, it seems that middle well would fill up across all sides of the middle well. The side opposite your 90 degree elbow would have to be something like 4" less than the 22" you've specified to get the effect your looking for. One thing to keep in mind here too - there shouldn't be any 90's within 4 inches (is it 4 inches for 1.5" return? I cant remember) of your return pump.
Final thoughts - ease of maintenance: is this return section going in front or in the back? If it's in the back - every time you want to service the return pump - your going to have to reach all the way around your sump for shutoff valves and pulling the pump. Ouch! If it's in the front - all that plumbing is going over the sump back to the returns in the display. Makes it very difficult to work on too.
When I started considering what I wanted to accomplish with a fuge - mostly elimination of nitrates and phosphates - and the design of this - it could never be efficient and do what I wanted. I also had problems balancing the slow feed to the fuge - but that was short sighted design problems in the plumbing on my part.
Let's say you are sending 10% of your overflow water to your fuge. That means the other 90% is going through your socks and your skimmer. That 10% of the split overflow "may be" treated up to 100% for removal of nitrates and phosphates - but you've still got that other 90% that's circulating back and forth between display and sump - it's still getting re-polluted from the display.
I think what you'll find with a fuge area is it will become stuffed full of gunk and detritus It may generate more nitrates and phosphates than it will remove.
I was so stuck on a fuge - I went and changed my design around so that 100% of the overflow water would be processed by the skimmer then to the fuge - then to the return. Again - another bad idea on my part. I had a 5" sandbed and did indeed have 0 nitrates and very low phosphates - but that thing was a beast to clean. I ended up taking it all out in the end.
So it really depends on what purpose you think you may be getting from the fuge whether you want to try this or not. If you want to grow mangroves or something - just to see them grow - then I think it's a pretty cool idea. If you think it's going to help with nutrient reduction with sand beds and/or miracle mud or something like that - I think it's a bad idea. If it's a true fuge because you want to keep a mandarain or something and you've got need for pods circulating the tank - it's also iffy. I had very little transfer of critters from sump to display tank.
I've totally changed my way of thinking based on John and Chris' advice and thoughts - filter socks, skimmer thats about it for equipment in the fuge.
Also 72" wide? I'm assuming you've got the available dimensions under the stand for 72" of length? or are you going external?
That's an interesting design you have for the center return pump section. However, it seems that middle well would fill up across all sides of the middle well. The side opposite your 90 degree elbow would have to be something like 4" less than the 22" you've specified to get the effect your looking for. One thing to keep in mind here too - there shouldn't be any 90's within 4 inches (is it 4 inches for 1.5" return? I cant remember) of your return pump.
Final thoughts - ease of maintenance: is this return section going in front or in the back? If it's in the back - every time you want to service the return pump - your going to have to reach all the way around your sump for shutoff valves and pulling the pump. Ouch! If it's in the front - all that plumbing is going over the sump back to the returns in the display. Makes it very difficult to work on too.
Ali :D
New member
Roger,
A few things I noticed;
- Make the first of your three baffle bubble trap slightly higher than the last. 8.5" maybe instead of 8". That will allow the first chamber to not collect surface scum.
- Your return chamber is far too small, the water flow through the traps will be rapid and cause the bubble trap to be useless. If you are running a dart at 1000+ gph you're going to need more space to slow that water flow down or you're gonna have a very bubbly display.
Other than that your design is fine. I've never been a fan of the middle return sections, the design to me seems wasteful as you either need two bubble traps or you compromise on the size of the return chamber like you have. You'll also be restricted on the amount of top off water you can add but I assume you'll be going with an ATO.
A few things I noticed;
- Make the first of your three baffle bubble trap slightly higher than the last. 8.5" maybe instead of 8". That will allow the first chamber to not collect surface scum.
- Your return chamber is far too small, the water flow through the traps will be rapid and cause the bubble trap to be useless. If you are running a dart at 1000+ gph you're going to need more space to slow that water flow down or you're gonna have a very bubbly display.
Other than that your design is fine. I've never been a fan of the middle return sections, the design to me seems wasteful as you either need two bubble traps or you compromise on the size of the return chamber like you have. You'll also be restricted on the amount of top off water you can add but I assume you'll be going with an ATO.
ChadRaay86
New member
If you're going to have a fish room, I'd run a stock tank or two. Pump up the water volume to 4-500 gallons and have a huge refugium or DSB. Thats the route I would have gone if I had the room 
janes_mw
Active member
only thing I can add is try and keep a simple as possible. Depending on return pump flow, make sure your return area large enough, but it looks like it is good to go. I think you have it close, low flow to fuge, high flow to rest. But... million ways to make water flow and ....
rogergolf66
im an addict lol
Ted I always look forward to your ideas. Thanks for the long post. My main goal is to reverse light it to help raise ph over night when display lights are off.
Yes I have the 72inches under the tank but the sump will be in the fish room behind the tank in the other room.
The pump will be in front of the tank for easy pump maint, but I will make sure the pipes r not near maint areas. I'm not understanding the 4inch less then the 22 part?
I will make the first one 8.5 thx
This is the same size bubble traps and return area I have currently running my dart. But I have plenty of room so maybe I will bump it out a few more inches.
Yes I will have an ATO so size of top off doesn't matter to me.
If you're going to have a fish room, I'd run a stock tank or two. Pump up the water volume to 4-500 gallons and have a huge refugium or DSB. Thats the route I would have gone if I had the room
Thx yes I will have a few 40 breeders added to the system later on that will bump u the water volume.
Thx I will bump up the size of the return area
rogergolf66
im an addict lol
Thx i can just have a 2inch screen instead of elbow. Thx for heads up
trialanderror
New member
I assume that you use an external recirculate skimmer which has slower flow than normal simmer. In that case, I would do the following.
First chamber - refugium, fed by return of the skimmer, overflow to second chamber, single high baffle to prevent back flow.
Second chamber, filter sock. There is a triple baffle between second and third chamber.
Third chamber, return pump, either internal or external and feeding pump for external skimmer.
This way, feed to refugium has minimal solid matter to prevent gunk build up, 4 baffles needed, and maximize usable space.
I would do second chamber bigger than just socks for two things: easy to clean gunk build up, or add a internal skimmer if you don't want external skimmer anymore.
First chamber - refugium, fed by return of the skimmer, overflow to second chamber, single high baffle to prevent back flow.
Second chamber, filter sock. There is a triple baffle between second and third chamber.
Third chamber, return pump, either internal or external and feeding pump for external skimmer.
This way, feed to refugium has minimal solid matter to prevent gunk build up, 4 baffles needed, and maximize usable space.
I would do second chamber bigger than just socks for two things: easy to clean gunk build up, or add a internal skimmer if you don't want external skimmer anymore.
I have a wide open sump besides the sock area and no baffles with my skimmer in the sump and I get a bubble or two an hour. Total guesstimation there. I don't actually count. When my top off runs it puts a ton of bubbles in the tank because the top off pipe is about 2 inches from my pump inlet. Doesn't bother me at all since the ocean has bubbles too.
If this were mine and I was doing it your way I would make the center side fuge wall black to try and get as little light bleed into the sump area as possible to prevent growth where I wouldn't want it.
As for the suction side of the pump Ted is right but I have always done exactly what you want to do and point the pump down as far as possible. I do it so I can leave the tank running when doing smallish water changes. I do bush up the size of the 90 at least 1 size. I would probably do a 3 inch on this. That rule also applies to a pipe return more than it does to just an open 90.
In this application I would think the pump would cavitate/vortex being open and somewhat close to the surface of the water if you just put a screen on the inlet.
If this were mine and I was doing it your way I would make the center side fuge wall black to try and get as little light bleed into the sump area as possible to prevent growth where I wouldn't want it.
As for the suction side of the pump Ted is right but I have always done exactly what you want to do and point the pump down as far as possible. I do it so I can leave the tank running when doing smallish water changes. I do bush up the size of the 90 at least 1 size. I would probably do a 3 inch on this. That rule also applies to a pipe return more than it does to just an open 90.
In this application I would think the pump would cavitate/vortex being open and somewhat close to the surface of the water if you just put a screen on the inlet.
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Ted_C
Active member
If it's only to run Algae - I say simplify the design and have 100% of your return water running over the lighted Algae.
Socks --> "Fuge" --> bubble trap --> return well
This was the end state of my 120 before I tore it down. I was growing quite a bit of chaeto using this method.
It would be sort of like an algae scrubber at this point instead of a fuge.
Socks --> "Fuge" --> bubble trap --> return well
This was the end state of my 120 before I tore it down. I was growing quite a bit of chaeto using this method.
It would be sort of like an algae scrubber at this point instead of a fuge.
rogergolf66
im an addict lol
Snap fish sent me a pm. Im doing a fish room so dont put the fuge in the sump. I will just add a 40 breeder for the fuge seperate.
Thx everyone
Thx everyone
snake1
Premium Member
That's how my sump is setup... sock and skimmer→fuge→bubble trap→return pump ....I grow cheato like crazy
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