Sump Design. Input needed

I am not an expert on this, so take my recommendations for what it is worth:

- UV filter works better with cleaner water. I am going to place mine after the skimmer
- Bubble trap should be right before the return pump section
- My tank builder recommended 1.5" distance between the bubble trap dividers
- I prefer the refugium to be on the other side of the return chamber, so I can control the water flow rate. Refugium, in general, requires lower water flow rate than the rest of the sump.
 
One panel weir: under overs, over unders are unneeded. If you are building an all in one, then it will be best to put the fuge on the other end and wye the drain pipe to each.
 
1) I know from experience that you will need more than 10" for a RO150INT. I recommend about 12"
2) The UV and Phosban150 don't need to be in the sump itself.
3) You can actually get the drains going directly into the skimmer section. There is no need for another section.
4) I have no idea where the 1.5" between baffles is coming from. Mine are half that at 3/4" and I have no problems with them.
5) Your return section should be bigger. You want at least enough volume for 24 hours of evaporation. Preferably more.
6) While I do use a refugium, it should be the last section in terms of size. I prefer the return in the middle as it lets me use a taller baffle than the rest of the sump for that section. That gives the algae plenty of room to grow before I go in and pull it out.

If this were mine I would probably do something like 12" for the drains/skimmer section, the bubble trap with 3/4" spacing (I used 1X2s when I built mine), and then 12" for the refugium using a 15" baffle. Simple and plenty of space for all three sections.
 
Thank you all for quick response. I have tried to take your suggestions and revised the design. Please give your inputs.

Sump_Revised.jpg
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This is a three section sump. It contains everything you need in the sump. If it is not in the image you don't need it to be in the sump. It is a 60" sump. Skimmer section on left. Below it is a 36" version of it, without the accessories, but it is the same. I am eliminating the in-sump "fuge" section in most of my systems as they just don't perform as advertised.

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UV sterilizers are ambiguous. There really isn't much point to having them in continuous use, despite the near mythical expectations of what they will do. It is taking up space needed by the return pump. Using phosban and chaeto is redundant, they both do the same job, however, the chaeto removes nitrates as well. On the other hand, phosban is pulling one of the constituents that the chaeto requires: phosphate. One has risks associated with it, the phosban, and the other doesn't. You certainly don't need both, and really you do not need either. You can loop a bucket DSB off the sump, and be done with both the chaeto and phosban, and you won't have to be replacing the phosban periodically, and won't have to harvest the chaeto, they are maintenance free. (Read saving $$.) I run a skimmer, a DSB (in one form or another,) and carbon. Carbon will remove some dissolved organics, that a skimmer will not, as well as other chemicals that do get into the tank; it will give you clear water, just as a UV is thought to do. There is some maintenance associated with carbon, and the skimmer.
 
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4) I have no idea where the 1.5" between baffles is coming from. Mine are half that at 3/4" and I have no problems with them.


the bubble trap with 3/4" spacing (I used 1X2s when I built mine),

For what it's worth, I'm a rocket engineer as well. I'm sure it became popular because of 2x4 however 3/4" spacing as you know will increase velocity of the flow which will make it harder for the bubbles to surface. Faster the flow the bubbles go right along for the ride.

So 1.5" spacing slows the flow velocity (not the total mass flow OP!, just the speed) allowing the bubbles much more time to surface in the trap.

You might be ok due to your drain system and skimmer set up. His results may vary.

Once the baffles are in, they are in and can't change it.
 
uncleof6:

In the photo of the sump you posted. The refugium is fed water by the return pump. Isn't better to feed the refugium water from the return line?

I am thinking the return water contains the nutrients needed by cheato, copepods, etc, while the water from the return lines is already stripped from that stuff by the skimmer, reactors, etc.
 
BalckTip, the drains also carry detritus which can build up in a refugium over time and become a long term source of nutrients. If there are enough methods to remove these before they become a problem its not an issue but most of the time folks get algae problems because of the gunk. Feeding it off the return lines means most of this detritus has settled in other places within the sump (around the skimmer in my sump) where it is easier to remove during water changes.
 
RE:

Thank you. How about nutrients? After the drained water is processed by skimmer, reactors, etc, Will there be any nutrients left for the refugium inhabitants?

BalckTip, the drains also carry detritus which can build up in a refugium over time and become a long term source of nutrients. If there are enough methods to remove these before they become a problem its not an issue but most of the time folks get algae problems because of the gunk. Feeding it off the return lines means most of this detritus has settled in other places within the sump (around the skimmer in my sump) where it is easier to remove during water changes.
 
Yes as they all pull only a given percentage out per pass. This isn't a one pass filter where you only get one chance to remove things. Our systems gradually reduce concentrations with each cycle of the water through the system. With enough passes, the nutrients get removed somewhere.
 
The skimmer does not pull out nutrients. Nutrients are inorganic salts, such as NO<sub>3</sub> and PO<sub>4</sub>, anions of nitric acid and phosphoric acid respectively, better known as nitrate and phosphate. They do not contain Carbon. They are ions, and do not have the molecular properties (hydrophillic, hydrophobic "poles") by which the skimmer works.

The skimmer pulls out some Dissolved Organic Compounds such as proteins, amino acids, vitamins, etc., having the molecular properties needed for the skimmer to remove them. These all contain Carbon, as well as many contain Nitrogen, and various other elements/compounds, Granulated Activated Carbon also removes some dissolved organic compounds by absorption.

Algae, both unicellular (Chlorella, and diatoms; examples) and multicellular (GHA, and chaetomorpha; examples) are primary producers. In other words, they use inorganic sources with which to build organic compounds for growth.

These primary producers use light, water, CO<sub>2</sub>, Nitrate, Phosphate, Iron, Copper, (and other trace elements) in the presence of light (energy source) to grow. They are all inorganic.

The source of these inorganic compounds is the decomposition (heterotrophic bacteria) of Dissolved organics, and secondary metabolites, (assuming you don't leave dead organic material in the system; the results of competitive chemical warfare between different species are secondary metabolites, for example.) excreted directly into the water by the critters themselves. (Unlike fresh water where ammonia NH<sub>4</sub> is excreted directly by the critters.) The result being Inorganic Compounds, namely ammonia, keeping it simpler.

Autotrophic bacteria, take the inorganic ammonia, and do their job: ammonia > nitrite > nitrate. To do a more complete explanation there are both ionized ammonia, NH<sub>4</sub> (ammonium nitrate for example) and unionized ammonia (NH<sub>3</sub>.) It is the unionized ammonia that is toxic.

Primary producers take up the Nitrate, and the "cycle" starts all over, though it never ends. Thus making the comment "my tank is cycled" one of the biggest myths in the hobby. The other big myth is "my parameters are fine."

In order to make heads or tails out of the methods, and processes, there needs to be a basic understanding of the difference between Dissolved Organic Compounds, and Inorganic Nutrients; they are dealt with in different ways, and many methods are mutually exclusive, and/or detrimental to the system, as in the case of Vodka dosing, or heavy reliance on GFO or phosban. Vodka dosing takes out the bottom end by encouraging heterotrophs to out-compete the autotrophs, making the system dependent on the organic carbon source, and if curtailed could cause the tank to crash. GFO/phosban remove phosphorus from the system, while adding iron. Phosphorus being an essential for life element.

To revisit a bit: Skimmers do not remove nutrients, they remove some of the sources (dissolved organics) of the nutrients. This reduces the burden on the rest of the system, and also reduces the biological oxygen demand. Primary producers remove nutrients via the process called Photosynthesis, releasing oxygen into the water, increasing the dissolved oxygen concentrations.

Because production of dissolved organics is way higher, and more diverse than the skimmer/carbon can handle, (the only methods of direct removal) there will never be a shortage of raw materials. Dissolved organics build up and are the cause of long term system decline. Nitrates are the result of a natural process, essential for the survival of our systems. They can be easily dealt with by a natural process. Phosphates are as well, however excessive phosphates are a husbandry issue, and are the direct fault of the hobbyist, (salt mix, feeding practices, sticking bare hands in the water, etc.) They need to be dealt with by an unnatural process.

At the hobbyist level, all of this is about controlling nuisance algae. (predominantly.) There are several things that algae require. To control the algae, you only need limit one of them. (iron and copper/trace elements aside.) You cannot limit light, water, and CO<sub2>, which leaves nitrates and phosphates. Since phosphates can be controlled by good husbandry, that leaves the area to concentrate on: nitrates.

So what do you really want (need) in the sump? I can tell you this much, you don't need all the junk you added to your sump design, stepping it back 20 years to the 1990s, and the technology craze. You don't need any of it at all, for a new start up, in the first place. How to start up a system is a seperate topic, and far too many have that wrong too.

The answer to "what do you really need in the sump" is more biology, and less technology, using methods to do not produce nitrates, (bio-balls, rock, mechanical filtration,) rather export them. Also you don't need methods that are borderline useless: UV sterilizer. Skimmer/carbon is a necessary "evil" at the current time. All the anecdote there is cannot touch that basic premise.
 
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