Sump pump setup

[awais98]

Hi everyone,
I'm a newbie and building this 120 gallon DT in the living room and a 70g Sump in the basement.
Ive done with most of the plumbing but I have a question that I am breaking my head with.

My return pump is an external panworld 200s and it is not self primed.
I have kept it above the sump ( see picture).
I do have additional hoses in the circuit at both the pump feed and pump out for priming and have put rubber check valve at both the pump feeds in the hope it will maintain the priming.

My question is, is this going to work fool proof if my electricity is ever down or Im in for some major trouble?
If it has to be changed then Ill have to re do a lot of plumping to keep the pump below the sump AND drill a hole in the sump for the gravity feed to pump.

Please help, what do you experienced folk think I should do?

Attaching the picture of my sump and the DT( DT background wall is in the making)

Thank you!

 

[sleepydoc]

So what happens if the check valves fail? I would design the system to work without check valves.

 

[uncleof6]

So what happens if the check valves fail? I would design the system to work without check valves.

A foot valve (a one-way check valve) is required to run a centrifugal pump in a suction lift scenario. It is called a foot valve due to its location in the plumbing: at the foot of the suction intake, submersed, rather than the output side of the pump. This allows the pump to maintain its prime. If the foot valve fails, you have a burned up pump. Pretty simple. You are right in both respects, however.

 

[uncleof6]

Hi everyone,
I'm a newbie and building this 120 gallon DT in the living room and a 70g Sump in the basement.
Ive done with most of the plumbing but I have a question that I am breaking my head with.

My return pump is an external panworld 200s and it is not self primed.
I have kept it above the sump ( see picture).
I do have additional hoses in the circuit at both the pump feed and pump out for priming and have put rubber check valve at both the pump feeds in the hope it will maintain the priming.

My question is, is this going to work fool proof if my electricity is ever down or Im in for some major trouble?
If it has to be changed then Ill have to re do a lot of plumping to keep the pump below the sump AND drill a hole in the sump for the gravity feed to pump.

Please help, what do you experienced folk think I should do?

Attaching the picture of my sump and the DT( DT background wall is in the making)

Thank you!

The first thing you want to do, is learn about centrifugal pumps, NPSHa and NPSHr, Suction Head and suction lift, and the price you will pay for setting the pump in its current location.

Before you do anything else, read this. I just glanced at it, but it seems to touch on the major topics. Pay particular attention to the section about "entrained gases," as our "fluid" contains Oxygen, CO2, Nitrogen, etc, and how this raises the vapor pressure of the liquid.

http://www.pdhengineer.com/courses/m/M-1008.pdf

When you can "speak the language," call PanWorld and talk to an engineer. Not the secretary, the sales department, bean counter, or anyone else--but an engineer. If they say sure, no problem hook it up, have nice day, you are not talking to an engineer. Find out the operating parameters of this particular pump, and what you need to make this succeed--if it will succeed at all. (I don't know the operating parameters for this pump, but I will tell you that generous pipe size on the suction line is going to be your friend, rather than the small line you have hooked up.)

This is an engineering problem involving NPSH problems, (as in suction lift) and needs an engineer that is willing to spend some time with you, so you understand why, or why not, as well as how. Know who you are talking too, rather than trusting an "armchair" engineer.

My gut reaction, since you have a small diameter pipe hooked up (higher friction loss in the suction line) that you would be better off dropping the pump below the sump, and only having to deal with a small amount of friction loss in the suction line, head height, velocity head etc. I have seen similar pumps, with a 14' static lift, produce a total dynamic head of 42'.

 

[Kawi9_cf]

I am engineering major and I am currently taking a class on pump and valves. We are learning about centrifugal pumps right now and my professor is supposed to be posting a link that explains a lot things about pumps such as net positive suction head and cavitation. I will post it once he does. One thing I thought I would point out is that your likely to experience some cavitation with those elbows so close to the intake. I honestly think you would be better off drilling the tank and moving the pump down it would be cheap and better for the pump in the long run. If your opposed to that then I would move the pump down as close to the top of the tank as possible and try to move the elbows further away from the eye of the pump so pressure can build up in the pipe. I would also increase the size of your plumbing on the inlet size. Doing those things would decrease your chances of cavitation which you dont want because it would kill your flow and your impeller. Here is a link I found that talks about cavitation in centrifugal pumps.http://www.derm.qld.gov.au/factsheets/pdf/water/w8.pdf

 

[uncleof6]

EDIT TO MY POST ABOVE: I mistook meself on the location of the pump. Not below the sump, rather the center of the intake of the pump, below the sump water line......

 

[Kawi9_cf]

One other thing I was curious about with your setup. Why are the pipes all curvy behind the display tank? Do you think that could cause you any air locking issues?

 

[buffalo123]

Empty the sump drill hole and plumb for the pump, easiest solution. As i look at the picture i picture burned out pump. checkvalve have to work perfect everytime.

 

[tomservo]

There's no reason you *have* to drill the sump to put the pump below the water line - a siphon set would work just fine, I'd go up a size on the pipe to reduce head loss in the elbows and such. And once the siphon is running, there should be no intervention required in a power loss situation. Putting a union and valve below the water level outside the tank will keep the siphon going even if you take the pump out for maintenance.

Also, check valves do horrible things to your flow, even the flapper type ones (rather than a spring loaded sort which is even worse).

I *strongly* recommend a splash shield for the wiring boxes in that wall. It's a good idea not to mount anything that could possibly leak above a wiring installation unless it's been wired to code for a wet location.

 

[awais98]

I am engineering major and I am currently taking a class on pump and valves. We are learning about centrifugal pumps right now and my professor is supposed to be posting a link that explains a lot things about pumps such as net positive suction head and cavitation. I will post it once he does. One thing I thought I would point out is that your likely to experience some cavitation with those elbows so close to the intake. I honestly think you would be better off drilling the tank and moving the pump down it would be cheap and better for the pump in the long run. If your opposed to that then I would move the pump down as close to the top of the tank as possible and try to move the elbows further away from the eye of the pump so pressure can build up in the pipe. I would also increase the size of your plumbing on the inlet size. Doing those things would decrease your chances of cavitation which you dont want because it would kill your flow and your impeller. Here is a link I found that talks about cavitation in centrifugal pumps.http://www.derm.qld.gov.au/factsheets/pdf/water/w8.pdf

Thank you for your reply. That aarticle was quick with a lot of useful information for me.
Sounds like the best solution is to get the pump below.
I have the pump inlet and outlet at 1 inch, as thats what the threat was for. But if im going to re plump, Ill make the inlet larger.
Thank you

 

[Kawi9_cf]

I'm glad it was helpful. Ill post that other link too if my professor ever posts it


And as uncle stated it doesn't have to be below the sump it should ideally just be level with the bottom of the sump with your bulkhead low in the sump so you have more time for evaporation. Goodluck

 

[awais98]

The first thing you want to do, is learn about centrifugal pumps, NPSHa and NPSHr, Suction Head and suction lift, and the price you will pay for setting the pump in its current location.

Before you do anything else, read this. I just glanced at it, but it seems to touch on the major topics. Pay particular attention to the section about "entrained gases," as our "fluid" contains Oxygen, CO2, Nitrogen, etc, and how this raises the vapor pressure of the liquid.

http://www.pdhengineer.com/courses/m/M-1008.pdf

When you can "speak the language," call PanWorld and talk to an engineer. Not the secretary, the sales department, bean counter, or anyone else--but an engineer. If they say sure, no problem hook it up, have nice day, you are not talking to an engineer. Find out the operating parameters of this particular pump, and what you need to make this succeed--if it will succeed at all. (I don't know the operating parameters for this pump, but I will tell you that generous pipe size on the suction line is going to be your friend, rather than the small line you have hooked up.)

This is an engineering problem involving NPSH problems, (as in suction lift) and needs an engineer that is willing to spend some time with you, so you understand why, or why not, as well as how. Know who you are talking too, rather than trusting an "armchair" engineer.

My gut reaction, since you have a small diameter pipe hooked up (higher friction loss in the suction line) that you would be better off dropping the pump below the sump, and only having to deal with a small amount of friction loss in the suction line, head height, velocity head etc. I have seen similar pumps, with a 14' static lift, produce a total dynamic head of 42'.

Thank you for your reply.
I read that crash cource article and it was very informative.
Seems like the NPSHa for water would be around inthe range 10-15 feet.
So it seems like it would work, but at a price of some constant stress on the pump. And it would be best if I want the pump to run ronger, to get it lower.
My pump inlet and outlet are both 1 " as was the pump thread, but as Im going to replumb, I will increase inlet to 1.5 inches.

Thank you so much! Im glad I posted it here and not just ruminated. Better take the pain of redoing now, rather then be on the edge always.

 

[awais98]

I'm glad it was helpful. Ill post that other link too if my professor ever posts it


And as uncle stated it doesn't have to be below the sump it should ideally just be level with the bottom of the sump with your bulkhead low in the sump so you have more time for evaporation. Goodluck

It might be easier for me to keep the pump under the tank then on the side of it, as you can see theres a door on the right of it.
Keeping it below would be ok though.

 

[awais98]

EDIT TO MY POST ABOVE: I mistook meself on the location of the pump. Not below the sump, rather the center of the intake of the pump, below the sump water line......

Thank you Uncle
If I put the pump below the sump, that would be fine too right? Just would be easier for me.

 

[awais98]

One other thing I was curious about with your setup. Why are the pipes all curvy behind the display tank? Do you think that could cause you any air locking issues?

Those curvy piples are the 3 overflow pipes that go down to the sump, pure gravity. I kept it curvy and flexible so as I could do the plumbing behind the tank.

 

[awais98]

There's no reason you *have* to drill the sump to put the pump below the water line - a siphon set would work just fine, I'd go up a size on the pipe to reduce head loss in the elbows and such. And once the siphon is running, there should be no intervention required in a power loss situation. Putting a union and valve below the water level outside the tank will keep the siphon going even if you take the pump out for maintenance.

Also, check valves do horrible things to your flow, even the flapper type ones (rather than a spring loaded sort which is even worse).

I *strongly* recommend a splash shield for the wiring boxes in that wall. It's a good idea not to mount anything that could possibly leak above a wiring installation unless it's been wired to code for a wet location.

That is a great idea to get the siphone system on. I will see what is more suitable, drilling or not. and will keep you posted!

Yes now I notice that I need to get some splash guard on the wiring box. :beer:

 

[awais98]

Empty the sump drill hole and plumb for the pump, easiest solution. As i look at the picture i picture burned out pump. checkvalve have to work perfect everytime.

I absolutely got the message. Thank you for your time.:spin3:

 

[awais98]

So, Im planning on this:
Pump below the sump
1.5 inch return with a siphon system, instead of drilling the tank.
1 inch return line going up.

In case if people were wondering: The extra port of the right side of the pump in the current system with the flexible tubing is an extra tubing, if I ever wanted to use to the same pump for moving water, with union valve. And for that purpose you can see the return line also has an extra left port with clear tubing.
Also above that extra return tubing an smaller 1/2" outlet is for the return to a future refugium.

This pump is rated at 1750GPH at 40 feet and at about 15 feet ( basement floor to the DT) it is around 1300GPH.
My DT being 120g, I understand this much flow should be enough for SPS if and when I get them?

 

[Kawi9_cf]

Under the tank will work just fine. I would try to follow the 10D rule that there is a thread on somewhere that states that you shouldn't have an elbow within 10 times the diameter of the pipe you are using to the pump. So for 1.5" plumbing you shouldn't have an elbow within 15" of the inlet to the pump.

 

[awais98]

Under the tank will work just fine. I would try to follow the 10D rule that there is a thread on somewhere that states that you shouldn't have an elbow within 10 times the diameter of the pipe you are using to the pump. So for 1.5" plumbing you shouldn't have an elbow within 15" of the inlet to the pump.

So this is how I changed the plumbing last night. See the pics.

Thank you everyone!!:bigeyes: