Sump/refugium

[CrayolaViolence]

I am wanting to build a refugium/sump for my aquarium. I am a bit confused about the differences between the two or if they can and do act as one? I have looked at several online designs, and while they are similar, they also vary.
I have a good quality skimmer now, and a tank to use as a sump/refugium. I am thinking the refugium is apart of the the sump? Anyhow, I was wondering if there is a reason why so many of them are made lower than the aquarium (other than aesthetics and to hide it?). My s/o wants to put it level so that there is little to no chance of water overflow if the pump were to stop. We will be working with a tall 20-25 gallon aquarium. Main aquarium is about 60 gallons. (I say 60 he says 55). Any how, We have plexiglass to make the dividers, I even have some screen if some think that works better for copods to transfer. I was hoping someone had an easy to build plan they could refer me to and also how to figure out space needed for each section based on the size of the aquarium. Is deeper shorter better or longer shallow. I can change aquariums if need be, but was wondering which would work best. I have a plexi-glass aquarium that is plumbed on the bottom, not sure if that will help in this situation or not. But it is about 36 inches long and 14-16 deep.
Anyhow, thanks in advance. I'll be checking out you tube as well but I really prefer written directions.

 

[toothybugs]

You can have a small refugium as a part of your sump, usually a middle chamber, OR as a plumbed-in separate tank. Either or. Usually the separate tanks are set up to be smaller displays of their own but you can also just have a wad of chaeto in it for extra water volume outside the sump.

Edit: My system is running a 3-chamber sump, the first section has my skimmer, the second is a giant, prolonged bubble/ detritus trap, and then my return pump section with my ATO sensor. My fuge is a separate tank that flows out in to my return section of the sump (avoids bugs getting in to the skimmer, I guess). The middle section that I use as a detritus trap would be a chaeto nursing ground if I hooked up a little shoplight and some flow in it.

 

[CrayolaViolence]

If you have a refugium do you need a filter? Or does the refugium act as a filter? I am a bit confused on refugium designs as some are saying to keep light away from your protein skimmer and exit box and only in the center with the macro algae, others show all clear compartments.

Also, there seems to be a big difference in how many compartments I need. I see them with 3-6. I'd really love some links to some drawn out plans. Looked at some Youtube videos and they are a bit confusing.

 

[A1t2o]

If the tanks are going to be level, how are you going to get the water from your display tank to the sump/refugium? Usually we put one higher than the other so we can use gravity to move the water in one direction through an overflow setup. These are easily setup so that there is a maximum amount of water that can go into the sump.

For the sump itself, a refugium is used for either containing fish that need to be separated, or for growing macro algae (or both). The reason many say to keep light off the skimmer and return compartment is 2 fold. 1) to reduce the amount of coralline algae growing on your equipment and 2) because there is no need for it, so why waste the energy on lighting them. Personally I like having 3 or 4 compartments. Display drain, skimmer, refugium, and return. The drain and the skimmer can be in the same section, or like I have it, you can have the drain water coming into another algae growing system (Algae Turf Scrubber) then a section for the skimmer and one for the return. Really though, it all depends on what you want in there.

 

[Reef_Maven]

My best version of a simple definition.

A sump is simply a place to hold equipment (i.e. skimmer, heater, return pump, etc.) a small tank is typically used for this and can have as many or as few chambers as you would like, although 2 to 3 seems to be common for a sump only set up. A1t2o did a great job of listing some common compartments above.

Second a refuge is as toothy and A1t2o stated a term used for a tank that houses macro algea, LR, or even fish/ inverets (if they need to be removed from the display) typically the main purpose of a refuge is to help with the export of nutriants via the macro algea & LR or to act as breeding grounds for coepods & other critters alike, or both.

Last as has been stated you do have the option to combine the two and allow for your sump to have a section that holds macro algea etc. that section or chamber would still be considered a refuge but would be apart of the larger sump.

Sorry no diagrams to help with that explination but hopefully the above helps you to build a good mental picture.

 

[toothybugs]

Filter? Running filter socks is entirely optional. I used to, but got tired of changing them and eventually quit when I recalled previous experience as well as a lot of anecdotal support from people saying their tanks did better without them (unless you're cleaning and need to clean up a lot of junk, etc). I second this, my tank seems to do better without socks, floss, bioballs, etc.

Sump options are really up to you - what do you want it to do, to house, to provide...? Designing a sump is like designing a 1-story house in that the general principle is there but how you want it to fit that purpose is up to you. If you need space for reactors, make sure its there. If you need a fuge in it, make sure its there. If you need a lot more water volume, make sure its there. If you don't need anything but a skimmer, heater, and return pump, go simple. It's all up to you. Customize it to your needs and liking. If you run out of space, re-prioritize or figure out another way to get the equipment in. It's almost as free as how you scape your rock - doesn't really matter how it looks so long as its there and doing the job it needs to.

And don't forget a good bubble trap before your return section, you don't want bubbles in your display.

 

[Deftones2015]

I got that from a Google search. That is how mine is set up, minus the chiller.

 

[CrayolaViolence]

If the tanks are going to be level, how are you going to get the water from your display tank to the sump/refugium? Usually we put one higher than the other so we can use gravity to move the water in one direction through an overflow setup..

Same way you would if they aren't level. with a pump or with gravity.

 

[A1t2o]

Same way you would if they aren't level. with a pump or with gravity.

You do not want 2 pumps controlling the flow between the 2 tanks unless you have some automated mechanism to tell them to shut down or adjust the flow when they are not in balance. Otherwise you could have one get ahead of the other and either run out of water and be running dry, or overflow one of the tanks. It is not recommended as a start up, they mainly do that on really large systems with plenty of room for error.

And for a gravity system, how would you ensure there is enough flow between the 2? Without a significant vertical drop you would not be able to go very far horizontally. You would have to have some height difference and you would have to figure out how to get the water out of the tank and into the next one. A reef ready tank would not work because you are not putting the sump lower than the tank, so you would need to drill the back/side or have a siphon overflow and place the tanks right next to each other. If the 2 tanks are going to be almost touching then there shouldn't be a problem, but going somewhere else without a sufficient height drop or a pump to create the desired flow rate is not going to work.

The reason why people do the sump under the tank, is because it is easier to set up a self regulating system and it is a convenient place to put it.

 

[CrayolaViolence]

You do not want 2 pumps controlling the flow between the 2 tanks unless you have some automated mechanism to tell them to shut down or adjust the flow when they are not in balance. Otherwise you could have one get ahead of the other and either run out of water and be running dry, or overflow one of the tanks. It is not recommended as a start up, they mainly do that on really large systems with plenty of room for error.

And for a gravity system, how would you ensure there is enough flow between the 2? Without a significant vertical drop you would not be able to go very far horizontally. You would have to have some height difference and you would have to figure out how to get the water out of the tank and into the next one. A reef ready tank would not work because you are not putting the sump lower than the tank, so you would need to drill the back/side or have a siphon overflow and place the tanks right next to each other. If the 2 tanks are going to be almost touching then there shouldn't be a problem, but going somewhere else without a sufficient height drop or a pump to create the desired flow rate is not going to work.

The reason why people do the sump under the tank, is because it is easier to set up a self regulating system and it is a convenient place to put it.

With the below refugiums how do you get the water back up? You use a pump. Going off the side we would not need a pump it would rely on maintaining water levels. The water going down on onside would draw it in, rising in the tank, lowering in the display would draw it back in through the out take. Like a line you used to drain a tank, once you get it going it moves until the water level drops to low or there is a break in the suction. I admit, I'm not skilled enough to explain how my s/o plans on setting this up, but he knows hydraulics(classic not just high pressure oil) so I'm pretty sure he will be able to get it to work. Personally I'm completely confused by all the different means of rigging up a system and can't tell how one way works better or worse than then other. To me it all looks like one big plumbing mess.

 

[CrayolaViolence]

And earlier when I said filter, I didn't mean filter socks. I meant a canister filter. Saw one set up where everything went into a canister filter before being pumped back into the display tank.

 

[JMorris271]

To address one of your fears.The sump overflowing.
Your sump must always be able to handle the overflow volume of water higher than the bottom of the overflow teeth and that water inside the overflow box that will flow down into the sump when you turn off the pump or there is a power outage.
The normal operating water level in the sump must never be so high that it displaces the empty sump area needed to catch that overflow water flowing down as a result on these events. If you don't allow for this, you WILL have an overflow.
To prevent this, get the sump stocked with all the equipment and rock or whatever you want in it.
With the drain plumbing turned off under the tank, fill the display tank all the way up to the level you want it to normally be at.
Then open the drain line valves coming from the tank to drain until that water stops. Now, in the sump with a ruler measure how much water flowed down in inches. That is the amount of water you must allow for in addition to the normal operating level in the sump when the pump is off. You and convert that measurement in inches to gallons if you want.
So always have enough room in your sump to hold the measured amount of water from the overflow in addition to the normal operating volume level.

No flooding from the tank . That way at least.
Hope that helps.

 

[CrayolaViolence]

To address one of your fears.The sump overflowing.
Your sump must always be able to handle the overflow volume of water higher than the bottom of the overflow teeth and that water inside the overflow box that will flow down into the sump when you turn off the pump or there is a power outage.
The normal operating water level in the sump must never be so high that it displaces the empty sump area needed to catch that overflow water flowing down as a result on these events. If you don't allow for this, you WILL have an overflow.
To prevent this, get the sump stocked with all the equipment and rock or whatever you want in it.
With the drain plumbing turned off under the tank, fill the display tank all the way up to the level you want it to normally be at.
Then open the drain line valves coming from the tank to drain until that water stops. Now, in the sump with a ruler measure how much water flowed down in inches. That is the amount of water you must allow for in addition to the normal operating level in the sump when the pump is off. You and convert that measurement in inches to gallons if you want.
So always have enough room in your sump to hold the measured amount of water from the overflow in addition to the normal operating volume level.

No flooding from the tank . That way at least.
Hope that helps.

Do you always have to cut into the glass of the tank to plumb them or can you run the plumbing over the side? I'm still having a hard time envisioning how all this comes together. I might have to take a trip over to the local reef store and see how they have their smaller tanks plumbed. Since I already have stuff in my tank and am adding the sump/regugium as an after thought, I really don't want to have to take everything out and re-do it.

 

[JMorris271]

Yes you can do everything over the side. This becomes a very limited setup though

 

[CrayolaViolence]

To address one of your fears.The sump overflowing.
Your sump must always be able to handle the overflow volume of water higher than the bottom of the overflow teeth and that water inside the overflow box that will flow down into the sump when you turn off the pump or there is a power outage.
The normal operating water level in the sump must never be so high that it displaces the empty sump area needed to catch that overflow water flowing down as a result on these events. If you don't allow for this, you WILL have an overflow.
To prevent this, get the sump stocked with all the equipment and rock or whatever you want in it.
With the drain plumbing turned off under the tank, fill the display tank all the way up to the level you want it to normally be at.
Then open the drain line valves coming from the tank to drain until that water stops. Now, in the sump with a ruler measure how much water flowed down in inches. That is the amount of water you must allow for in addition to the normal operating level in the sump when the pump is off. You and convert that measurement in inches to gallons if you want.
So always have enough room in your sump to hold the measured amount of water from the overflow in addition to the normal operating volume level.

No flooding from the tank . That way at least.
Hope that helps.

So you have an overflow plus a refugium? Can you provide me a diagram of your set up? Thanks.