Sump return pump recommendations?

Duchess

New member
I'm in the planning stages of designing a DIY sump/refugium to go underneath my 72G.

Should I use an in-sump or external pump for my return pump? I'm leaning toward a in-sump pump simply because it's one less hole in the sump and therefore one less chance for a flood.

Do you have any specific pump recommendations? I need an efficient pump because my electric rates are increasing 72% in June (many thanks to the Public Utility Rate Commission for approving that rate increase).

I appreciate any feedback!

Lynn
 
What size are your overflows?

I would recommend using an external pump, as they generate less heat in your sump.

--matt
 
Waaaay to big. I would stick with a small pump...like an eheim 1250. You can run it external if you really must, but its only 28 watts so it wont heat up much. 1/2" pipe is fine for the return. Then you can place larger flow pumps inside the tank for flow (or a closed loop).
 
Is the plumbing to your sump 1" also? If so, (and you only have one overflow) then you could use a pump rated at 1000gph The actualy flow by the time it reaches your display is much less than the pump rating. I would overshoot the pump rating and add a ball valve on the return plumbing to "dial down" the flow if needed.
Check out the Blue line pumps. Engineered the same way as the Iwaki's, but reportedly less noise and less money :)
-matt
 
the eheim 1250? this is rated at 317gph (assuming no head pressure) correct? Seems pretty weak to me. Doesn't a 1" overflow have about 600gph downflow?
 
Here, I did the calculation for you. With a Eheim 1250, 5' approx of 1" piping vertically, 1' of 1" pipe horizontal, 2x90deg elbows gives you:

"Total losses are 5.06 feet of head pressure, or 2.19 PSI. with a flow rate of 145 GPH. Process took 151 iterations. "

Unless I am totally missing something...
--matt
 
I guess I should have asked what kind of livestock the original poster was planning on keeping. I have multiple clams, SPS, etc in a 150 (total circ vol about 220gal). I use a 2000gph return pump, and have two tunze streams on opposite ends of the tank facing each other. Are you asking me what are the benefits to having strong circluation in a closed loop system? Hmm. Improved gas exchange; more evaporation/topoff = less heat; less stagnant water pockets; strong flow is necessary for filter feeders; perhaps better health for 'swimming livestock'.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7394615#post7394615 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bosox
Are you asking me what are the benefits to having strong circluation in a closed loop system?
No. I asked why you would want high flow from a return pump. I totally agree on flow in the display.
 
I used 3' head, 1" diameter, 2x 90degrees. If a 75g-ish tank is about 2' high, on a 2.5' tall stand, thats 4.5', minus the level of water in the sump...thats about 12-18"...so you have about 3-3.5' of actual head pressure due to height change. That gives about 200-250 gph of flow. Thats right on target. My cousin uses a 1250 for the overflow on his 180g (and previously on his 125). The flow in the tank is done with a pair of Tunze 6200s and the overflow is fed directly into the recirculating skimmer (Aquamedic 5000 baby). Works great.
 
One reason to maximize flow between your sump and display (aside from the aformentioned reasons) would be for additives. If you use a kalk reactor or calcium reactor (or even if you manually add supplements) it is obviously more dilute with a higher flow through the sump. If you have a fuge underneath as well, you will have greater nutrient exportation, and more 'pods' being pulled up to your display for fish food. Furthermore, if you use biological filtration (LR, DSB, etc) it would stand to reason that greater flow past these 'filters' would aid in the processing of ammonia and nitrates.
Do what works for you, but I'm a strong believer in strong circulation. It has worked wonders for me. Just my two cents
matt
 
The generally accepted flow rate for a return pump is 3 - 5x display volume. For a 72G tank, that would be ~ 200 - 350 GPH. Since the OP has concerns about power usage, the Eheim 1250 is a very good choice.
 
im setting up my 75gallon tank again and Im going with an eheim 1250 for my return. I run a sump refugium so I dont want alot of water going through the sump. Just enough to get the pods up to the display. I will rely my flow on a pair of seio m1100s.
 
That's cool. Like I said, whatever works for you. With my livestock, I've had the best luck with intense lighting, chaotic circulation, and aggressive skimming. Some people do other things, and their tanks turn out fine as well.
Duchess-
Good luck in with the new setup
-matt
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7394718#post7394718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bosox
One reason to maximize flow between your sump and display (aside from the aformentioned reasons) would be for additives. If you use a kalk reactor or calcium reactor (or even if you manually add supplements) it is obviously more dilute with a higher flow through the sump. If you have a fuge underneath as well, you will have greater nutrient exportation, and more 'pods' being pulled up to your display for fish food. Furthermore, if you use biological filtration (LR, DSB, etc) it would stand to reason that greater flow past these 'filters' would aid in the processing of ammonia and nitrates.
Do what works for you, but I'm a strong believer in strong circulation. It has worked wonders for me. Just my two cents
matt

This is the typical...dare I say..."American" approach to designing a system. Larger pumps = better. But after adding up the wattage of running your sump return as your main circulation pump (what, a 2000gph pump or larger?...thats gotta be at least 200 watts), as well as everything else...like a pump for a beckett at another 150-200 watts...lol...thats alot of wasted energy and heat.

Here...read this thread I started as Herbert T. Kornfeld...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=550482

There are many more advantages to running your sump as a low-flow sump...lower electric and heat are just two of them. Calfo has always been an advocate as well of these methods.

As for the quote above...those reasons arent really true. Additives spread fast enough with just 200gph (more overseas reefers use this approach and have no problem). Think about it, if a heater can keep a whole 180g tank warm with just 200gph of flow through the sump in a 60degree room, your additives will have no problem. As far as nutrient uptake, same thing. Look at phosban reactors...you can run them with as little as 50gph, and at most 150g...so that 1000gph you run through your sump is kinda useless. Calcium is the same. It distrubutes fast enough...even with just 100gph of overflow on a 300g (DNA's TOTM). As for DSBs and plenums, you actually want to run low flow across these areas to prevent oxygenation of the upper layers.

The only area where higher flow MIGHT be an advantage is with a refugium, but its not so much the throughput as it is the current. Do you really think macros are going to remove everything in one pass? Or a skimmer for that matter? You can just as easily run a powerhead in the refugium to give the macro algae the current it likes (pods actually prefer lower current), OR, make the refugium long and narrow to maximize the flow that you have. Some people prefer lower flow through the refugium too. This is a small area considering the minor contribution that the refugium will make anyways.

The benefits of a low flow sump are many...
lower electric bills
lower heat
less noise (no toilet in the overflow) to muzzle
less evaporation
better skimming

Yep, better skimming. Calfo suggests the longest overflow you can fit, with a low flow...just enough to skim the top layers of the tank water's surface where the proteins naturally build up. Then feeding this directly into the skimmer, of a countercurrent or recirculating needlewheel variety. I have done the change myself and found many advantages...including nastier, darker skimmate than before. See, with a high flow pump, you are actually mixing more of the proteins that the skimmer cant catch fast enough back into the tank (they pass the skimmer and get blended back in). With a low flow... the skimmer gets a longer period to get those proteins (and other things of course).

The point...put the smallest pump you can get away with on the sump return...the loss due to head-pressure will be what...the equivalent of 10 watts maybe when if you used a larger pump, like a 100gph one that uses 100watts...you would lose 30 or more...not to mention the extra wattage you are using up front (100 rather than 28).
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7394930#post7394930 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
The benefits of a low flow sump are many...
lower electric bills
lower heat
less noise (no toilet in the overflow) to muzzle
less evaporation
better skimming
Add much less microbubble problems to the list.
 
As I said twice before, there are multiple ways to plumb a marine system. There are multiple trains of thought behind each. I'm glad a low flow system works for you. That's great. You are describing one approach. Just because YOU think a refugium only makes a "small contribution" doesn't mean you are absolutely correct.
As far as mine being an "American approach", I guess I am. I hope being an over-consumer doesn't make me a bad person. In regards to electric bills: You should see my lighting scheme...
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7395058#post7395058 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bosox
As I said twice before, there are multiple ways to plumb a marine system. There are multiple trains of thought behind each. I'm glad a low flow system works for you. That's great. You are describing one approach. Just because YOU think a refugium only makes a "small contribution" doesn't mean you are absolutely correct.
As far as mine being an "American approach", I guess I am. I hope being an over-consumer doesn't make me a bad person. In regards to electric bills: You should see my lighting scheme...

lol. I know a frenchman that has a 150g...2x250watt halides, a 400watt halide in the center (radium), and 320 watts of VHO...for a grand total of 1220 watts! And his wife is a lithting engineer no less...lol. We are in the process of swapping out much of his lighting to T5 as we speak...should cut his wattage in half.

I used to be all for the refugium with high flow myself. I know many 'fuge companies' out there suggest a throughput of 10-20x the tank capacity for maximum nutrient removal...I dont know how valid that is...there are plenty of people who do the opposite. Not to mention, those figures are relative...you might need that more flow if you are using an 18" wide b 18" high refugium to keep things from stagnating. I myself use a fuge that is above the sump...it measures 6" wide, 12" high, and is 36" long...just over 10g...but its slim cross section makes the 300gph it gets alot more noticable. not that it matters, as it sits on my sump it is fed with a seperate powerhead...the sump only getting about 150gph of throughput.

I forget the exact test/article, or who it was by, but the actual percentage of waste reduction by various macro algaes (and more) was very little...so having 200gph through a refugium vs 2000gph seems like it wouldnt make a big diff if the amounts being removed were only like 10% or something. It would seem with removal rates that low, having low flow through the refugium with a supplimental powerhead to blow things agound would be just as good as a large throughput.

Or, you can run your refugium above/behind the tank on a seperate loop from the sump's. There is that argument that pods and such have a harder time passing into the tank if they have to go through a pump to get there...so having a refugium that spills into the tank might be a better idea even...then your overflow/skimmer/sump can stay low-flow, and your fuge can have as much flow as you want.
 
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