Sump Size

[Elricsfate]

Hello All,

I am in the process of setting up a 180 DT. Having heard that a general rule of thumb is that your sump should be at least 10% of your DT size, I ordered a 32g sump from Synergy reef. However, I have read many posts in these forums where people have sumps nearly as big as, and in some cases bigger, than their DT.

So now I am wondering if I should use the 32g sump on the 75g DT I have sitting empty atm, and get a bigger sump for the 180...or do you think the 32 will be large enough for the 180?

Thanks in advance.

 

[sde1500]

The more water volume the better. I think you'll be a little undersized on that sump, but not sure. Most important part is how you set it up, can it handle the water from a back siphon if and when the return pump is off?

 

[Cliving1]

The more water volume the better. I think you'll be a little undersized on that sump, but not sure. Most important part is how you set it up, can it handle the water from a back siphon if and when the return pump is off?

Agreed and can it comfortably fit all your equipment and allow maintenance.

 

[Elricsfate]

I plan to use check valves.

As far as equipment goes, I only really plan to use a skimmer, heaters, and return pump inside the sump. If I end up using reactors I will probably plumb them externally.

I will continue to give this thought. If it turns out not to be big enough I guess I'll move it to the 75 and go bigger.

 

[sde1500]

Check valves? As in you turn off the return pump, and close a valve so no siphon? All that means is the first power outage floods your floor. You NEED to account for back siphon.

That being said, their sumps are beautiful, and it is probably big enough. I'd have gone with their CL-44 instead though.

I shot for close to 30% tank volume with my sump.

 

[nereefpat]

I plan to use check valves.

Man, does that make me cringe.

10% rule of thumb seems way too small. 1/4-1/3 seems like a better guideline. This is to account for water drainage during a pump failure, as others have mentioned. There are at least a couple other reasons. I don't see how a person could fit all the equipment for a 180 in a 18gallon sump, for example. I also think think there would be a ton of noise if a reasonable turnover for a 180 gallon display was forced through an 18gal sump.

Just some general thoughts since I can't speak specifically on the Synergy system you picked.

 

[SFish]

I would use a siphon break as a back up in case the valve fails. Most people will say not to use a check valve. In any case you want your sump to be able to hold the back flow from the DT if the power goes out. As far as sump size go as big as you can.

 

[rjjr1963]

I'm planning to use a 75g sump and a 40g refugium. I want to have plenty of room for equipment and the extra water volume is good too.

 

[ericarenee]

Man, does that make me cringe.

.[/QUOTE


+THIS on the check valves. :headwalls:

set it up properly to not need them. they all fail at some point not to mention the water setting in the pipes is a pain to deal with if your doing plumbing work

 

[Drummindot]

Man, does that make me cringe.



.[/QUOTE





+THIS on the check valves. :headwalls:



set it up properly to not need them. they all fail at some point not to mention the water setting in the pipes is a pain to deal with if your doing plumbing work

It all depends on how it's set up. If the overflows are properly set up you'll only loose an inch or two from your DT when the return pump if off.

We've set up a 265g FW DT with a 42g aquarium made into a sump. We've still got plenty of room even with the pump off and run approximately 1850gph through it.

It's all in how the plumbing is set up. Do your research and leave the check vales at the store. It's just asking for a flood.


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[AlSimmons]

As long as the sump doesn't overflow when the power is out the 32 gallon should suffice. A place for your equipment and nothing more... If you want to "fancy" it up so to say with a refugium, DSB etc, then bigger just might be better. Keep your focus on the water up top though, not the one that's down below.

 

[Elricsfate]

Check valves? As in you turn off the return pump, and close a valve so no siphon? All that means is the first power outage floods your floor. You NEED to account for back siphon.

That being said, their sumps are beautiful, and it is probably big enough. I'd have gone with their CL-44 instead though.

I shot for close to 30% tank volume with my sump.

Thanks for the reply. I posted more detail about the setup in another reply. I agree about the sumps from Synergy. That's why I bought the one I bought.

 

[Elricsfate]

It all depends on how it's set up. If the overflows are properly set up you'll only loose an inch or two from your DT when the return pump if off.

We've set up a 265g FW DT with a 42g aquarium made into a sump. We've still got plenty of room even with the pump off and run approximately 1850gph through it.

It's all in how the plumbing is set up. Do your research and leave the check vales at the store. It's just asking for a flood.


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I don't understand how putting a valve in a pipe that prevents water from flowing backwards is "asking for a flood". This is exactly the plumbing setup that BRS uses on the BRS160, which is the model I am basing this build off of.

The valves will be directly below the return bulkheads, so the rest of the water in the pipe can flow out. The returns will be at/near the surface of the water, so as was stated only an inch or so (7.5 gallons) could drain back in the event of valve failure.

I am not "asking for advice and then refusing to take it". I am open to the thought that my sump is too small. But I am not getting this whole idea that placing a check valve in a pipe is asking to flood my house. Yes, if I just plumbed it however I wanted and didn't take the possibility of losing the return pump into account, and then relied solely on the check valves for safety, I could see that. But that would be stupid...and I'm not stupid.

I ordered the Georg Fischer Wye Check Valve from BRS, *specifically* because it was included in the BRS160 build, and covered specifically by Ryan in the video on plumbing the tank.

The check valves are *a* safety feature. Not *the* safety feature.

 

[Elricsfate]

As long as the sump doesn't overflow when the power is out the 32 gallon should suffice. A place for your equipment and nothing more... If you want to "fancy" it up so to say with a refugium, DSB etc, then bigger just might be better. Keep your focus on the water up top though, not the one that's down below.

Thanks Al.

I do not plan to run any of the "fancy" stuff to start with. If I decide to do so in the future I will likely plumb things like reactors or a refugium, externally. If worse comes to worse, I'll move the sump to the 75 and buy a bigger one for the 180.

I am considering the suggestion made earlier about getting the CL44 for the 180. I haven't run a single pipe yet, or added a drop of water. So there is still time to consider these things.

 

[SFish]

There is nothing wrong with using a check valve. You can get by without it though that being said I don't see a problem with using it as part of a multi system approach. A few people probably had a flood and now are totally against them. Yes they can get stuck and have to be maintained but so does everything else we use. The pipe can still be back flushed you would just have to designe it with the use of a ball valve so the check valve can be removed. The other thing to take into account is it will probably slow your pump down some but we are usually over sizing our pumps anyway and have to dial them back.

 

[sde1500]

It all depends on how it's set up. If the overflows are properly set up you'll only loose an inch or two from your DT when the return pump if off.

We've set up a 265g FW DT with a 42g aquarium made into a sump. We've still got plenty of room even with the pump off and run approximately 1850gph through it.

It's all in how the plumbing is set up. Do your research and leave the check vales at the store. It's just asking for a flood.


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Not the overflows, the return. It is the return that back siphons water out of the tank into the sump when the pump turns off. But the rest of your point is correct, need to be sure to set it up right or it will flood, and no check valves.

 

[Elricsfate]

There is nothing wrong with using a check valve. You can get by without it though that being said I don't see a problem with using it as part of a multi system approach. A few people probably had a flood and now are totally against them. Yes they can get stuck and have to be maintained but so does everything else we use. The pipe can still be back flushed you would just have to designe it with the use of a ball valve so the check valve can be removed. The other thing to take into account is it will probably slow your pump down some but we are usually over sizing our pumps anyway and have to dial them back.

Thanks for the reply.

With regard to the pump, I ordered a Vectra L1 DC (3100 GPH). I figured 3-5x turnover is (roughly) 600-1000 gph (taking total volume into account, not just DT). With the head pressure, fittings, etc. I figured this would still give me a little more muscle than I need and allow me to run the pump a little lower than 100%. Obviously I'll have to dial it in once I get everything set up.

Thanks for mentioning the ball valve. This is my first reef tank, and my first sump. So I will be going slow and no doubt making numerous trips to the store for plumbing parts. But, I'll get there.

 

[Drummindot]

I'm not saying check valves are evil. What I meant is that they aren't absolutely necessary. That being said. Using just check valves is asking for trouble because if/when they fail you will get water outside the system.
That said, if you use them as a multi-faceted approach and they are simply part of an overall plan so that if/when they fail you've got other ways to prevent water from being outside they system ok. It sounded like you were going to use only check valves which is what caused me a bit of alarm. I apologize for misunderstanding I was not trying to criticize at all I just didn't want you to end up thinking check valves were a fix all and damage your home.
That said we can always try to plan for the worst and there will be 'something' that happens that bypasses whatever safe-guards we put in but that doesn't mean we couldn't prevent a lot by using as many safe-guards as possible.


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[Elricsfate]

Thank you all for your input. I appreciate this resource, and the people who take the time to offer advice.

 

[Elricsfate]

I'm not saying check valves are evil. What I meant is that they aren't absolutely necessary. That being said. Using just check valves is asking for trouble because if/when they fail you will get water outside the system.
That said, if you use them as a multi-faceted approach and they are simply part of an overall plan so that if/when they fail you've got other ways to prevent water from being outside they system ok. It sounded like you were going to use only check valves which is what caused me a bit of alarm. I apologize for misunderstanding I was not trying to criticize at all I just didn't want you to end up thinking check valves were a fix all and damage your home.
That said we can always try to plan for the worst and there will be 'something' that happens that bypasses whatever safe-guards we put in but that doesn't mean we couldn't prevent a lot by using as many safe-guards as possible.


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All good. I take every bit of input. I wasn't trying to be argumentative either, just didn't understand. But I think we're on the same page now.

So, Loctite return outlets just barely below the surface, wye check valves cleaned and maintained regularly... is there some other precaution you would add? I'm an IT guy, not a plumber But I'm learning.