"Superorder Peracarida, of the Class Malacostraca", Say what ?

MUCHO REEF

2003 TOTM Recipient
Premium Member
Just had an interesting discussion with a fellow reefer on the potentially rampant or none exsistance of Amphipod predation on zoanthids. That's right, these tiny crustaceans, Superorder Peracarida, of the Class Malacostraca, that you'll see scurrying around after dark and often during the day. Much debate abounds regarding their predation as it relates to zoanthids. Not sure what they look like, click on the link below and scroll down. This is a great article to read and retain for future reference.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rs/index.php

So, my question is for the OG's and the New G's alike with hopes of generating a good discussion. Have you personally witnessed them consuming polyps or do you agree or disagree that they are predators at all? Would you say some are and some aren't?

This is not about irritators since anything can be considered an irritator of polyps. Let's limit this discussion to predation only. Thanks.


Mucho Reef
 
I have had this problem many times! I say that some do eat the polyps of zoas, I have watched them take down many new frags of various kinds of zoas. They never bother the zoas that have been in the tank for a month or so. I also find that they will only eat certain kinds of the zoas and leave other zoas and palys alone. I am not sure which species they will go after because I quit collecting zoas and moved on to SPS.

Its good to see you posting still mucho!!

Jarred
 
In his article he describes the majority of amphiopods to be beneficial and i agree, other than the crazy man eaters he talks about in washington which live in water much colder than our aquariums. I must have thousands of amphiopods in my tank and I've kept zoa/palys for years and never experienced this. IMO people just say that there polyps are being eaten by amphipods as an easy solution to there problem and just give up or are mistaking something else for an amphiopod. However, we have all seen how different individual spiecies can be in aquariums, but, they are usually few and far between. So yes, I will agree that maybe 1 out of the thousand amphipods in your tank may be predacious. Imo, knowing how small these animals are i dont seen them whipping out every zoanthid in your tank single handedly. Maybe if your one of those people that buys one polyp frags, but thats ur own damn fault for buying a single polyp. So theres my 2cents.

Cheers,
~Tom
 
Hey guys thanks for that. I have another article to share tomorrow on this subject. I think it holds some convincing proof one way or the other. Stay tuned.

Hey Jarrod, how's it going? I pop in and out once and a while. Good to hear from you.


Mucho Reef
 
I moved to a new house recently and had the 'opportunity' to tear my tank down and set it back up several times over the past two weeks. I found tons of these in my tank. They may or may not be predacious, but with their size I can't imagine they could take down a single zoa by themselves let alone a colony. If anything, I would think they are opportunistic like many reef inhabitants and feed on polyps that are already weak or sickly.
 
In his article he describes the majority of amphiopods to be beneficial and i agree, other than the crazy man eaters he talks about in washington which live in water much colder than our aquariums. I must have thousands of amphiopods in my tank and I've kept zoa/palys for years and never experienced this. IMO people just say that there polyps are being eaten by amphipods as an easy solution to there problem and just give up or are mistaking something else for an amphiopod. However, we have all seen how different individual spiecies can be in aquariums, but, they are usually few and far between. So yes, I will agree that maybe 1 out of the thousand amphipods in your tank may be predacious. Imo, knowing how small these animals are i dont seen them whipping out every zoanthid in your tank single handedly. Maybe if your one of those people that buys one polyp frags, but thats ur own damn fault for buying a single polyp. So theres my 2cents.

Cheers,
~Tom

Spot on! :beer:
 
I moved to a new house recently and had the 'opportunity' to tear my tank down and set it back up several times over the past two weeks. I found tons of these in my tank. They may or may not be predacious, but with their size I can't imagine they could take down a single zoa by themselves let alone a colony. If anything, I would think they are opportunistic like many reef inhabitants and feed on polyps that are already weak or sickly.


Hmmm, interesting observation rogersb, kinda parallels something in the next link coming up. What's your opinion on the 2 links above?

Mucho
 
Hmmm, interesting observation rogersb, kinda parallels something in the next link coming up. What's your opinion on the 2 links above?

Mucho

I read through the first link yesterday and just finished the 2nd now. I don't have any people eaters currently but did have a small frag of some a year or two ago. Some report all zoas can be preyed upon but I think it seemed that the PE were more likely to be eaten. It would be interesting if someone had a decent size colony that could be spread around to different reefers tanks and see if we could observe this behavior. I am at work so off the top of my head I have 15-20 colonies of different zoas and have never noticed any amphipods attacking them.

I would also like to ask a question to those who witnessed amphipods eating their zoas - were the pods full after eating a skirt? The pods are relatively small and the skirts look big enough to fill them. If they were full after a skirt, how many pods would it take to kill even one zoa?
 
I doubt one pod could take down a polyp, if true, it would take several in my opinion. Still hoping to hear from others.

Mucho Reef
 
I completely forgot about this thread until I saw this thread earlier today.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2161766


I created this thread to solicit some feedback and much needed discussion as it relates to the polyps we keep. The thread died sooner than I'd hope, but it was good to hear diverse opinions.

I personally DO NOT believe all pods will consume zoanthids. I DO however believe there are some who will eat perfectly healthy pods for no other reason than to consume them as a source of food. I believe pods as a whole or in part will consume sick/dead or dying polyps. To date, and from nothing that I have seen, read or discovered in person, online or from the pros, no one has isolated which pods are the culprits in consuming perfectly healthy polyps.


As Dr. Shimek has stated in his article, "amphipods are ecologically important". They are both herbivores and detrivores. Thus they will consume both plant based and decaying matter/material just as an earth worm or maggot would according to every definition I've read. So, as a detrivore, this explains their consumption of sickly/dead/dying/decaying polyps. Is it a stretch to say there are specific amphipods whom would in fact consume perfectly healthy polyps?

I refer back to the many reefers I know personally and have a great respect for as some are as A-Retentive about their tanks as I am. I'm just an average Joe, but I do believe there are specific amphipods, not all and certainly not the majority, who will, can and most certainly have consumed perfectly healthy polyps.

I think the most advisable course of action is a proactive means of maintaining their population to a minimum. For those who have successfully implored or utilized a predatory fish to do this, can you please share which fish you chose. I'll start by saying Dragonets. I know for a fact thare are several more, but prefer to hear from you.




....and the debate continues.

Mucho Reef
 
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mucho my friend, long time no see(talk)! im glad to see somebody i know is still around. been away from the hobby for about a year and im just now coming back lol

i have noticed many different things living on my corals thru the years. most common for me in the past would be a small pod colony that never did any damage. i have seen some sort of pod munch on zoas that are already hurting or starting to melt away.

i have even had little red bugs the size of a grain of sand destroy colonies i have had for years. we should all know what these are lol

i also believe that most of these pods/bugs we see can not be seen well enough to know what they are or if they would cause an issue. many people i have met thru the years have told me that copepods ate thier zoas..... now do you think it was copepods or something else??

it all boils down to the fact that unless you have a camera set up 24/7 with a really good lens setup you would never know. i feel that even some of these scientist really have no clue and are just guessing from what they have seen or noticed.

only thing i can gaurantee you is you will forever see something new in your tank thru the years that you never even knew was there. you may never even notice the difference between it and something else you see everyday. so saying for certain that this organism is eating the zoas/palys or any other coral is hard to say. almost everything is a guessing game on these forums and even in the real world
 
mucho my friend, long time no see(talk)! im glad to see somebody i know is still around. been away from the hobby for about a year and im just now coming back lol

Hello my friend, yes, very long time. I agree, about 95 % of the OG's are gone for one reason or another. I miss those guys/gals, we had some great discussions back in the day for sure. Hey glad you're back.


i have noticed many different things living on my corals thru the years. most common for me in the past would be a small pod colony that never did any damage. i have seen some sort of pod munch on zoas that are already hurting or starting to melt away.


Yes, I agree, as I'm sure you already know, numerous host are imported from LFS, the sea and any stop in between. Some good and some bad. Again, I have to agree, there are pods who will munch, though they are in the minority.


i have even had little red bugs the size of a grain of sand destroy colonies i have had for years. we should all know what these are lol

Got a pic of them?

i also believe that most of these pods/bugs we see can not be seen well enough to know what they are or if they would cause an issue. many people i have met thru the years have told me that copepods ate thier zoas..... now do you think it was copepods or something else??

I say it could have been. This is where these forums are so helpful. There are a lot of guys whom I personally know that they know their stuff. I have read their post over the years and we have conversed both in public and private on a host of topics. I am convinced that there is a pod or pods which will indeed consume perfectly healthy polyps.

it all boils down to the fact that unless you have a camera set up 24/7 with a really good lens setup you would never know. i feel that even some of these scientist really have no clue and are just guessing from what they have seen or noticed.

I agree to an extent, however, I have been helped years ago by Dr. Shimek and I hold him in very high regards for his work, his writings and his knowledge. I have learned so much from reading the books and literature written by many well respected heavies in this hobby. The key is to read, digest, cross reference. experiment and apply said knowledge and document it. This is what I do and have done. Yes, there are some who miss the mark, but that's when one can fall back on any personal experience and knowledge in the hobby.

only thing i can gaurantee you is you will forever see something new in your tank thru the years that you never even knew was there. you may never even notice the difference between it and something else you see everyday. so saying for certain that this organism is eating the zoas/palys or any other coral is hard to say. almost everything is a guessing game on these forums and even in the real world

I agree bigtime man. Something new is always there to be seen. Years ago, I discovered the Sea Grass Wrasse hunting/searching and consuming nudibranchs and posted those findings right here in this forum. I purchased several fish on a hunch that one would be the nudi hunter we all wanted to guard our zoanthids. It was through trial and error, for the lack of a better word, that I found him. I couldn't guess if this fish was consuming nudibranchs, I had to prove it. In the end, some who purchased this fish did see him hunt nudis, others didn't. That said, sure there is some guessing, speculation etc, but not all. Hey, we have to trust someone, RIGHT? LOL.


Hope all is well with the tank. I enjoyed the discussion. Hope we can have more. :beer: CHEERS
 
mucho, i will see if i can dig up a picture of the bugs for you. it was many years ago but i may still have something in hiding that was not tossed or deleted. i ended up selling all of my tanks and equipment over a year ago. me and my wife were supposed to move and once we did i was going to get a big tank. but we still have not moved and the bug bit me again. so i am looking at buying a nano and starting all over again with nothing.

i dont doubt that there are a form of pod out there that will much on zoas, but to prove that would be very difficult. i have seen things munch on already hurt zoas/palys, but i can not say for sure that the pods could have been the reason they got that way.

i do remember having an outbreak of these big pods years ago that lived at the base of my zoas/palys and i always had a thought in the back of my mind that they were the cause of a few big colonies going bye bye... but i could never prove this theory. instead a added a few wrasses and the pods slowly went away.

i just think it would be almost impossible to prove all of this. i have no doubt in my mind there are things like pods or nudis out there that do eat corals. we know of a few, but i am sure there are more then we have a clue about. not too mention when something is hungry enough it does some crazy things lol

i do trust some things people say. but i also do alot of research before i do anything. make sure there are others out there who have the same idea or atleast close to it.

oh yea... did i mention the price of zoas/palys is still crazy? i guess i was praying that some things would change before i decided to come back.
 
Took zoa/paly colonies and gave them a quick revive wash before moving them up of sand into frag rack. Guess what came out? Pod's. They already ate 1 rasta and blue agaves haven't opened up in a week. Could the polyp died of natural cause's and pods were feeding on leftover, possible but clearly some irratant is happening and tied to passing of polyp I think it was snacked on. The rasta's are full open now, hope the agave follows. I have no natural predators yet to eat pod's so population is unchecked. Have a leopard wrasse coming on fri, hope it lives long enough to eat those suckers
 
mucho, oh yea... did i mention the price of zoas/palys is still crazy? i guess i was praying that some things would change before i decided to come back.


LOL, yes, but these prices passed crazy a long time ago along with the lies, now it is simply ridiculous. Those who came into the hobby after 2005 simply aren't aware for the most part.

But, it's good to see you around again bro. Keep the faith.


Mooch
 
I wish this thread was posted when I was having problems, I could have gave so much evidence. I have since gotten rid of the problem by moving on and collecting acros. I will see if I have any pics hidden in my photobucket.
 
Hey Jarrod, long time man.


Sorry to hear about your lose man. What kind of evidence are you speaking of? Would love to read and see what you have.


Mooch
 
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