SURGE bucket, that actually works!!!
- Thread starter KingT420
- Start date
Pyrojon
New member
I have been meaning to take some pics so maybe I can do some now and later shots.
I dont have it housed in a hood, but rather on a shelf above and behind the tank.
It's an acrylic box that holds about 2.9 gallons, it dumps about 2.6 gallons at a time. I am using an old power head to fill it and it takes about 2 minutes to fill and 12 seconds to dump.
I use 1" diameter pvc to bring the water to the tank but wish I had gone larger. The next one will probably use 1 1/4" diameter pvc.
Jon
I dont have it housed in a hood, but rather on a shelf above and behind the tank.
It's an acrylic box that holds about 2.9 gallons, it dumps about 2.6 gallons at a time. I am using an old power head to fill it and it takes about 2 minutes to fill and 12 seconds to dump.
I use 1" diameter pvc to bring the water to the tank but wish I had gone larger. The next one will probably use 1 1/4" diameter pvc.
Jon
melev
Well-known member
KingT420 said:
You can submit your DIY information, along with pictures (a webpage would be my choice of course) and JohnL and staff will look it over to approve it for the DIY page.
http://reefcentral.com/directory/index.php?sid=582826391&t=sub_pages&cat=1
Btw, this can be found on the Home Page under <b>Web Links</b>, not the first <b>Do It Yourself</b> link.
melev
Well-known member
KingT420 said:
You can submit your DIY information, along with pictures (a webpage would be my choice of course) and JohnL and staff will look it over to approve it for the DIY page.
http://reefcentral.com/directory/index.php?sid=582826391&t=sub_pages&cat=1
Btw, this can be found on the Home Page under <b>Web Links</b>, not the first <b>Do It Yourself</b> link.
MarkS
Premium Member
Re: sorry for the delay in responding. Been really busy.
Re: sorry for the delay in responding. Been really busy.
The RCSD does not use any water pumps and is either located in the aquarium or externally, connected by bulkheads. The only device needed to power it is an air pump, and not even a powerfull air pump. I would recommend you do a search. Good reading material at the least.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking your design. In fact, I find it quite amazing. My problem with it though is the same one I have with most other types of surges; Lack of a way to empty the device should something go wrong. Imagine what would happen if the wire breaks, or one of the float switches fails or the solenoid fails... Until you noticed, you would be pumping all of the water out of your system and onto the floor.
Re: sorry for the delay in responding. Been really busy.
KingT420 said:
The RCSD does not use any water pumps and is either located in the aquarium or externally, connected by bulkheads. The only device needed to power it is an air pump, and not even a powerfull air pump. I would recommend you do a search. Good reading material at the least.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking your design. In fact, I find it quite amazing. My problem with it though is the same one I have with most other types of surges; Lack of a way to empty the device should something go wrong. Imagine what would happen if the wire breaks, or one of the float switches fails or the solenoid fails... Until you noticed, you would be pumping all of the water out of your system and onto the floor.
Hey all, I am still trying to find my camera and that schematic. Maybe tonightââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦.
leykis1o1
The ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œteeââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ and short length of pipe is for dead air space; the flexible pipe would probably fall apart. I had some of the thin wall PVC actually break on me, so I switched to sch 40. I am just guessing, but I bet there is at least 25# of water in the tube when full (which is all the time). Imagine taking a twenty pound barbell and tying it to your surge system in a few places, and then dropping it over and over. Something is bound to break. The dead air space, acts like a cushion for the water to stop softly. Some kind of expansion chamber (or whatever you want to call it) was definitely needed in my particular case. Just remember, my buckets are higher then the 2nd floor of my house, and making them lower (with shorter runs of pipe) might not need the same protection from the Water Hammer.
As far as noise, you could put a piece of sponge in the solenoid, or use a spring loaded solenoid to lessen the noise, a servo of some type could also be incorporated if you got creative. The key is to not ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œpopââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ the float valve open, (cuz if you do, it closes on its own, when the bucket is empty, instead of when you want it to, before air gets sucked in the pipe) so a very short throw solenoid would work as well. I am sure you could eliminate the clicking sound.
The sound it makes in the garage is a whole other story, you can hear the pump (of course just a little) and you can hear the buckets filling above your head, then the click, and then you hear what sounds like 4 gallons of water moving 10ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ in 10 seconds. could defiantly startle someone. I like it, sounds like the ocean. I wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t run one in my bedroom at night, but during the day, sure, why not. I can hardly hear anything in the house by the tank, no warning at all; even the fish have no idea when the surge is coming.
Oh, and the valve does make a very solid thud when closing (remember it is stopping that 25# of water)
I feel like a small-scale surge, closer to the tank, would be much quieter. As that was not on my list of ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œIT MUST DO THISââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ I did not pursue silencing them.
I could see (3) or (4), 3 gallon buckets under a hood, with minimal plumbing not needing a cushion for the water hammer, and not making all that much noise. Wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t be too hard.
MarkS
The overflow protects my pets and my house from any unnoticed damage, and the way it is setup in the tank, it is very easy to see what is going on with the surges. I can easily see the surges, and if I happen to miss them, I notice that my refuge return (directly to tank) is flowing twice what is should. I have tested this system failing many times (Believe Me, it took some work getting to this point).
Another cool little goodie, the relays I used to trigger the solenoids have a little led light on them, so when you look at them, you can see the operation of the circuitry.
Now water does sit in the bucket and PVC when it is not running, but to work on them, you just pull the string and let the whole bucket and tube empty. Viola, totally empty buckets to work on.
leykis1o1
The ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œteeââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ and short length of pipe is for dead air space; the flexible pipe would probably fall apart. I had some of the thin wall PVC actually break on me, so I switched to sch 40. I am just guessing, but I bet there is at least 25# of water in the tube when full (which is all the time). Imagine taking a twenty pound barbell and tying it to your surge system in a few places, and then dropping it over and over. Something is bound to break. The dead air space, acts like a cushion for the water to stop softly. Some kind of expansion chamber (or whatever you want to call it) was definitely needed in my particular case. Just remember, my buckets are higher then the 2nd floor of my house, and making them lower (with shorter runs of pipe) might not need the same protection from the Water Hammer.
As far as noise, you could put a piece of sponge in the solenoid, or use a spring loaded solenoid to lessen the noise, a servo of some type could also be incorporated if you got creative. The key is to not ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œpopââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ the float valve open, (cuz if you do, it closes on its own, when the bucket is empty, instead of when you want it to, before air gets sucked in the pipe) so a very short throw solenoid would work as well. I am sure you could eliminate the clicking sound.
The sound it makes in the garage is a whole other story, you can hear the pump (of course just a little) and you can hear the buckets filling above your head, then the click, and then you hear what sounds like 4 gallons of water moving 10ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ in 10 seconds. could defiantly startle someone. I like it, sounds like the ocean. I wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t run one in my bedroom at night, but during the day, sure, why not. I can hardly hear anything in the house by the tank, no warning at all; even the fish have no idea when the surge is coming.
Oh, and the valve does make a very solid thud when closing (remember it is stopping that 25# of water)
I feel like a small-scale surge, closer to the tank, would be much quieter. As that was not on my list of ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œIT MUST DO THISââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ I did not pursue silencing them.
I could see (3) or (4), 3 gallon buckets under a hood, with minimal plumbing not needing a cushion for the water hammer, and not making all that much noise. Wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t be too hard.
MarkS
The overflow protects my pets and my house from any unnoticed damage, and the way it is setup in the tank, it is very easy to see what is going on with the surges. I can easily see the surges, and if I happen to miss them, I notice that my refuge return (directly to tank) is flowing twice what is should. I have tested this system failing many times (Believe Me, it took some work getting to this point).
Another cool little goodie, the relays I used to trigger the solenoids have a little led light on them, so when you look at them, you can see the operation of the circuitry.
Now water does sit in the bucket and PVC when it is not running, but to work on them, you just pull the string and let the whole bucket and tube empty. Viola, totally empty buckets to work on.
melev
Well-known member
Everything sounds really good from what you've posted.
I'd like to toss out one possibility, in case you haven't thought of it.
If your system fails on one side, from your last post I get the impression water stays in that line to avoid air bubbles. If that is the case, and that water can't move until you have the time to fix the problem, when you do reactivate that side, that water could be toxic from stagnation or lack of oxygenation.
Recently one RC member had a total tank wipeout because his calcium reactor pump went dead. He didn't drain it before restarting the system, and shortly there after everything was dead.
I'd like to toss out one possibility, in case you haven't thought of it.
If your system fails on one side, from your last post I get the impression water stays in that line to avoid air bubbles. If that is the case, and that water can't move until you have the time to fix the problem, when you do reactivate that side, that water could be toxic from stagnation or lack of oxygenation.
Recently one RC member had a total tank wipeout because his calcium reactor pump went dead. He didn't drain it before restarting the system, and shortly there after everything was dead.
melev
You make a good point. I was wondering about the stagnation of the water in the tubes. I havenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t noticed any problems yet, but then again the buckets are only shut off for 8 hours. I could easily set the pump timer to come on for a few minutes every hour during the night. I might even do that tonight. Like every other 15min on/off, might be cool.
I wonder how long it takes for our water to become stagnant?? I have an unused ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œTeeââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ in some of my plumbing that I bet has stagnant water in it right now. Also the cushion from the water hammer is nothing but stagnant air, and whatever else wants to thrive in there. I wonder if that would be a problem.
I am sure whatever living stuff that is in the tubes when they stop falls into the tank (gravity) but there is stuff in the buckets I am sure, that probably dies.
Maybe I should make the buckets drain completely each night?? And then have them purge the air out every morning with the first surge.
I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t know how to handle the possibility of stagnant water, but I am sure each and every one of us has at least one spot in their tank, or sump, or plumbing etcââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ that doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t get the turnover it should.
How long was the reactor out before restarting it?? Do you know?? A reactor is full of a nice medium that I am sure bad stuff could thrive in a lot easier that water all by itself.
Anybody else got any comments or ideas???
You make a good point. I was wondering about the stagnation of the water in the tubes. I havenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t noticed any problems yet, but then again the buckets are only shut off for 8 hours. I could easily set the pump timer to come on for a few minutes every hour during the night. I might even do that tonight. Like every other 15min on/off, might be cool.
I wonder how long it takes for our water to become stagnant?? I have an unused ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œTeeââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ in some of my plumbing that I bet has stagnant water in it right now. Also the cushion from the water hammer is nothing but stagnant air, and whatever else wants to thrive in there. I wonder if that would be a problem.
I am sure whatever living stuff that is in the tubes when they stop falls into the tank (gravity) but there is stuff in the buckets I am sure, that probably dies.
Maybe I should make the buckets drain completely each night?? And then have them purge the air out every morning with the first surge.
I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t know how to handle the possibility of stagnant water, but I am sure each and every one of us has at least one spot in their tank, or sump, or plumbing etcââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ that doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t get the turnover it should.
How long was the reactor out before restarting it?? Do you know?? A reactor is full of a nice medium that I am sure bad stuff could thrive in a lot easier that water all by itself.
Anybody else got any comments or ideas???
melev
Well-known member
This is the thread about the failed reactor. He guesses it was dead for a week, but doesn't know.
Since I'd not read it recently, I thought it was just a few days, so I was worried you'd have an issue.
What about this for an idea.... Could you have both valves open all night to allow all your pipes to flow water freely during the night phase, then reset during the day time to the one-on, one-off system? You might have some air bubble issues for the first few surges, but that would emulate the ocean even better!
Since I'd not read it recently, I thought it was just a few days, so I was worried you'd have an issue.
What about this for an idea.... Could you have both valves open all night to allow all your pipes to flow water freely during the night phase, then reset during the day time to the one-on, one-off system? You might have some air bubble issues for the first few surges, but that would emulate the ocean even better!
Interesting reactor story, I feel a little safer now, considering the situation and all. I might try the 15 on 30 off for the night just for the fun of it. I would have to rewire my setup if I wanted the valves held open during the night, and I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to do that.
I would like the movable upper float design, maybe Ill direct my energy that path, and then run the surge 24/7
I would like the movable upper float design, maybe Ill direct my energy that path, and then run the surge 24/7
SaltwaterNovice
New member
King:
I doubt that you have anything to worry about polluting your tank with the "overnight" water from the surge devices.
First, I don't think the water will stagnate in eight hours. Why don't you do a simple test. Place some tank water in a bucket, test parameters, close up with lid, wait eight hours and then test your water parameters again. You will have your answer.
Second, even if the water did degrade slightly, from my calculations you have over a 200 gallon setup plus surges, so I don't think that it would have an effect on your system.
Also, I wouldn't run the surges 24/7 as the tank should have a little quiet time.
How long have your surge devices been operating.
Keep up the good work. You are blazing new trails.
Send yourself this idea in the mail and don't open the envelope (poor man's patent) just incase you want to sell this idea to a big company in the future
Brian
I doubt that you have anything to worry about polluting your tank with the "overnight" water from the surge devices.
First, I don't think the water will stagnate in eight hours. Why don't you do a simple test. Place some tank water in a bucket, test parameters, close up with lid, wait eight hours and then test your water parameters again. You will have your answer.
Second, even if the water did degrade slightly, from my calculations you have over a 200 gallon setup plus surges, so I don't think that it would have an effect on your system.
Also, I wouldn't run the surges 24/7 as the tank should have a little quiet time.
How long have your surge devices been operating.
Keep up the good work. You are blazing new trails.
Send yourself this idea in the mail and don't open the envelope (poor man's patent) just incase you want to sell this idea to a big company in the future
Brian
Quiet solenoid
Quiet solenoid
Great job on this! There are small actuators on zone valves for radiant heating systems that use a thermal element and wax. The element turns on, hetas up, the wax expands and pushes (actuates the valve) They take several seconds but are dead silent.
I think they used these to engage the front differential on my old 1990 Chevy 4X4 too. (Used to call it eventuala-trac, rather than insta-trac because it was slow acting. ) Probably stronger, but it cost $60.
Food for thought.
King,
Which timing relays are you using?
Chris
Quiet solenoid
Great job on this! There are small actuators on zone valves for radiant heating systems that use a thermal element and wax. The element turns on, hetas up, the wax expands and pushes (actuates the valve) They take several seconds but are dead silent.
I think they used these to engage the front differential on my old 1990 Chevy 4X4 too. (Used to call it eventuala-trac, rather than insta-trac because it was slow acting.
) Probably stronger, but it cost $60.Food for thought.
King,
Which timing relays are you using?
Chris
for the stopper making noises when it shuts, there is a way around this with King's design if there is room beside the tank for the surge buckets, and if the pull string is replaced with a solid rod to also close the valve.
The valve could be located below the level of the main tank. and the bottom float switch just a little higher than this. that way there isn't much presure due to hight. draw back to this is not many people have the room beside their tank and a tall surge bucket would be required.
The valve could be located below the level of the main tank. and the bottom float switch just a little higher than this. that way there isn't much presure due to hight. draw back to this is not many people have the room beside their tank and a tall surge bucket would be required.
