surge setup??

fishnfst

fishnfst

New member
Hello all I've been reading up on surge tanks.. Seems like the two types are a carlson and a bornerman or something close to that spelling.. Is anyone using either currently on their tank? I admit that I'm an equiptment and diy junkie.. Just wanted to try something new out..

I couldn't find a really good pic of the carlson surge.. I found this one of the bornerman sty le setup..

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/surge_device.html

Pro's and Cons from anyone who has one would be much appreciated..
 
The Carlson surge is more simplistic in that it has fewer moving parts, however in both surges you should have an accidental overflow "just in case" then the water simply pumps high just to drain back into the tank.

I've found that if if you do a Borneman (is there some crack to a toilet being named after him?? :)) you can potentially reduce the amount of bubbles significantly with sump check valve. Of course I've seen the ones they've recently been selling, and the company that used to sell an all plastic one now has a couple metal parts in there, of course this adds to the size of the surge sticking into your display tank which isn't usually preferred.
 
I tried searching for carlson surge last night but couldn't really find any detailed pics.. It looked like a riser came up off center in your reservoir then 90'd out then 45'd down towards the bottom of the reservoir with a 45 at the end that terminated maybe a .5" above the reservoir bottom.. Does that sound like it?

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/mrwhitefolks410/DSCF0618.jpg

This is the pic I found in someone elses post here.. I think its pics of surge tanks at atlantis.. Does the other end of the pipe terminate in your display tank? Below or above the water line? Will the pipe under the waterline have a hard time starting a siphon due to the air trapped in the plumbing once the reservoir starts to refill?

I looked at the bornerman one initially because it had the built in secondary overflow pipe.. Plus it doesn't rely on a siphon to start emptying.. It is mechanical with the float and all.. Maybe I'll have to build one of each and then test them out...
 
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goto AG in Milpitas, they have one setup. they will turn it on if you ask them to. I agree with Mike, you should add a overflow to it.
 
Fishnfist: Yup those are the "Carlson" surges. Basically the surge tank is nothing more than an inverted U shape of piping, some opt for a 45 degree like the ones in the picture, I'm unsure if that actually helps anything.

What this does is as water fills that tank up, water inevitably fills up the piping, now the tricky thing here is the air that is trapped in the pipes needs to go someplace, that someplace is your tank. If you have your return pipe to your tank too deep then you're going to need a larger area above the surge tank pipes for the water to go, this is because there's more pressure that's needed to push that air out.

Once there gets to be enough water in the piping however it will start to siphon, this is what gets all surgie :) It pulls the water out much faster than it can be pumped in, eventually draining most of the tank down to the bottom of the pipe to which you get a "slurp" and final gulp of air that usually ends up in your tank.

Does the other end of the pipe terminate in your display tank? Below or above the water line?
Click to expand...
Below the water line, if it's above the water line a siphon can't form.

I looked at the bornerman one initially because it had the built in secondary overflow pipe.. Plus it doesn't rely on a siphon to start emptying.. It is mechanical with the float and all..
Click to expand...
Basically yeah, it's a toilet flapper. The issue with these is that depending upon the height of the surge tank you use you'll need quite a bit of upward "force" to pop it open, usually more than one float ball. And regardless of which one you choose I would add the overflow protection, all you need is an urchin or something to wedge it's way into your surge pipe to ruin your day.
 
I'm starting to get it now... I have an 18H I was going to use as my reservoir but now I htink it may be too large.. The tank I'm putting it together for is only 58g.. Maybe if I only put the pipe slightly under water it won't take as much height to fill and start a siphon..
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9732208#post9732208 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sfsuphysics
some opt for a 45 degree like the ones in the picture, I'm unsure if that actually helps anything.
Click to expand...
Lets the siphon start faster and has less air trapped at the top of the loop to get sucked into the tank.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9732208#post9732208 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sfsuphysics
If you have your return pipe to your tank too deep then you're going to need a larger area above the surge tank pipes for the water to go, this is because there's more pressure that's needed to push that air out.
Click to expand...
Some designs use a small air bleed to release the air.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9732208#post9732208 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sfsuphysics
It pulls the water out much faster than it can be pumped in, eventually draining most of the tank down to the bottom of the pipe to which you get a "slurp" and final gulp of air that usually ends up in your tank.
Click to expand...
Cutting an angle on the end of the siphon pipe in the surge tank is supposed to help break the siphon quickly with less air getting gulped into your tank.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9732208#post9732208 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sfsuphysics
Below the water line, if it's above the water line a siphon can't form.
Click to expand...
The surge outlet pipe in the display? What physics book did you find that in? :)

Here's some good info:

http://www.breedersregistry.org/Reprints/SeaScope/v13_sumr/surge.htm
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9732208#post9732208 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sfsuphysics
Below the water line, if it's above the water line a siphon can't form.
Click to expand...
The surge outlet pipe in the display? What physics book did you find that in? :)
Click to expand...

Oh, without the back pressure, the water drains too fast to let the siphon form...

Never mind :)
 
Thanks for the good info... I'm going to try a prototype with a 5g bucket just for kicks.. From the article it seems that most of the surge setups are between 5 and 10% of total tank volume.. So I will try 5g first then maybe 10...
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9732785#post9732785 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Ugly
The surge outlet pipe in the display? What physics book did you find that in? :)
Click to expand...


Oh, without the back pressure, the water drains too fast to let the siphon form...

Never mind :)
Click to expand...

And just to think you could have edited your post.


WAAAAAAAACHA!
 
Nah, I let my lame comments stand. It's funnier that way, and keeps me honest :)

I wasn't thinking about the oversized diameter for the surge pipe, so was thinking only about the mass of water on either leg of the siphon to be :)
 
Heh... I was looking at that pic, thinking, "Where in the heck did I see that before??? It looks really familiar!" Then I re-read his post, haha :)
 
Thanks Tom and Norm.. hehehe.. Is it feasible for me to run the whole tank through the surge tank? I would use a smaller return pump and a medium large sump compared to the tank.. I'm actually going to use the tank I got from you Tom :) I'm hoping to try it out in the next couple of weeks.. I'll let you guys know how it goes..

Or do you guys think its more trouble than its worth? I'm a self proclaimed diy junkie.. Gotta always have something to play with :)
 
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