SW Invert BAP proposal
- Thread starter herpchat
- Start date
Only time will tell..... 
Travis L. Stevens
New member
Chris, Paul is right. I am a slacker. That's why I have a marine fish tank :rollface:
Gerald,
is this for OKAA or for COMAS.
My personal feeling is that what you are attempting is not really applicable to corals, nor to inverts that are profligate breeders.
It would really be akin to giving points to someone who has lots of snails reproducing in their fw tank.
While breeding is laudible, i think that only a few people would be interested in devoting time to do it. I know Adam is having success with Bangaiis and others with clowns, but from my understanding of your program, you would like them to now do a different species for more points. ( is that correct....im trying to remmber your program details). The issue here is that most of us dont have multiple tanks for doing such and have our systems set up as displays as opposed to breeding arrangements.
I feel the inclusion of creatures that propagate freely without intevention on our part lowers the standards of what you are trying to achieve.
I also think you should ask OKAA their thoughts. If you are asking COMAS since we have more knowledge of marine systems, it begs the question why you are trying to get a BAP going in the OKAA.
ANyways, just y thoughts.
is this for OKAA or for COMAS.
My personal feeling is that what you are attempting is not really applicable to corals, nor to inverts that are profligate breeders.
It would really be akin to giving points to someone who has lots of snails reproducing in their fw tank.
While breeding is laudible, i think that only a few people would be interested in devoting time to do it. I know Adam is having success with Bangaiis and others with clowns, but from my understanding of your program, you would like them to now do a different species for more points. ( is that correct....im trying to remmber your program details). The issue here is that most of us dont have multiple tanks for doing such and have our systems set up as displays as opposed to breeding arrangements.
I feel the inclusion of creatures that propagate freely without intevention on our part lowers the standards of what you are trying to achieve.
I also think you should ask OKAA their thoughts. If you are asking COMAS since we have more knowledge of marine systems, it begs the question why you are trying to get a BAP going in the OKAA.
ANyways, just y thoughts.
Travis L. Stevens
New member
Sort of. Or maybe consider just ornamental invertebrates. This would include desirable Anemones, Corals, Zoanthidae, Corallimorphians, Shrimp, Crabs, etc. I would take into serious consideration the reproduction processes of these animals. They tend to have more than one way to create offspring.
Honestly, if this was my project, I would ask the OKAA group for a partner to share the BAP with. With your expertise in Freshwater and gaining someone with an expertise in Marine aquariums, you could responsibly share the work load. Believe me, the marine side will be a HUGE workload. With the way the BAP is selective on making sure that things are properly identified, you will really need someone to work with you on the Corals. People are lucky to get the correct Genus, let alone a species. For example, can you safely identify all 150+ species of Acropora? As you can see, even the experts of the experts have trouble attempting to accomplish what the BAP is proposing to do with the Marine side of aquariums.
I really don't want to rain on your parade here. It's awesome what you are doing. But either drastically relaxing on the BAP rules and risk reputation, dropping the invertebrate side completely, or creating an all new strictly Marine BAP are about the only options you have.
Honestly, if this was my project, I would ask the OKAA group for a partner to share the BAP with. With your expertise in Freshwater and gaining someone with an expertise in Marine aquariums, you could responsibly share the work load. Believe me, the marine side will be a HUGE workload. With the way the BAP is selective on making sure that things are properly identified, you will really need someone to work with you on the Corals. People are lucky to get the correct Genus, let alone a species. For example, can you safely identify all 150+ species of Acropora? As you can see, even the experts of the experts have trouble attempting to accomplish what the BAP is proposing to do with the Marine side of aquariums.
I really don't want to rain on your parade here. It's awesome what you are doing. But either drastically relaxing on the BAP rules and risk reputation, dropping the invertebrate side completely, or creating an all new strictly Marine BAP are about the only options you have.
Travis L. Stevens
New member
If it was up to me, I would do something similar to this. Feel free to take it for what it is worth.
Class 16B: Ornamental Saltwater Invertebrates (3 species)
• 5 points: Nudibranch, Shrimp, Snails
• 10 points: Crabs, Lobsters, Octopus, Cuttlefish
• 15 points: Clams and other Bivalves, Urchins
• 20 points: Anemones, Corallimorphians, Zoanthidae, Soft Corals
• Target: Hard Corals, all that are not listed
*Points will only be given out to those reproduced sexually and raised to an adult stage
Class 16B: Ornamental Saltwater Invertebrates (3 species)
• 5 points: Nudibranch, Shrimp, Snails
• 10 points: Crabs, Lobsters, Octopus, Cuttlefish
• 15 points: Clams and other Bivalves, Urchins
• 20 points: Anemones, Corallimorphians, Zoanthidae, Soft Corals
• Target: Hard Corals, all that are not listed
*Points will only be given out to those reproduced sexually and raised to an adult stage
Travis L. Stevens
New member
Like most things, they aren't hard to reproduce, they are hard to raise.
herpchat
New member
OK here goes,
Yes this is for the OKAA.
What they had to start with in salt water was a joke and that is because it was done by non salt water people. I am limited to 16 catagories and I already have one catagory for saltwater fish so tucked in the SW inverts into the Invert catagory. I know this needs a lot of work, which is why I ask here. You all have lots of experience, much more then the OKAA members have.
Things that breed freely are worth 5 points. and things you really have to work on are targets. Yeah maybe some of the 5 point stuff should be tossed. Anything that is considered a food type item or is a pest is also tossed otherwise someone could claim hydra as 5 point inverts under FW inverts.
The BAP is already started, I could leave a totally broken BAP inplace or modifiy it with changes to try to reflect some accuracy with reality (which is what I am doing).
For the record only a few species are snails are accepted for FW inverts, the Bridges snails that lay egg clusters outside of the water, Giant Ramshorns because of difficulty to raise, and a few livebearing snails. All other snails are excluded.
Travis L. Stevens
New member
Why? Seriously. This is an ongoing effort from the OKAA, if it was set in stone, then you will have problems. As you can see from our suggestions, there is a lot more involved than you might think. Breaking down the Marine stuff of the BAP will make things a lot easier, and less vague. Honestly, I highly suggest splitting up the BAP into two categories, Marine and Freshwater (or three and include Brackish). Each of these categories can then be further broken down. After all, not everyone has more than one tank, let alone more than one tank of different categories. So, what is the point in letting a freshwater aquarist have to live up to the standards of marine when he doesn't have a tank?
How do you know? Have you asked? Sheryl (serra) seems experienced.
Sorry for throwing you under the bus, Sheryl
Once again, your stuck on the difficulty of the action of breeding. Honestly, take a look at the ocean's food chain. Almost all of it starts as Zooplankton. I would venture to guess that basing the system off of available prey items, larval stage size, etc along with the actually difficulty would make far more sense.
Exactly. Because the BAP is already started, it would be VERY wise to ask the OKAA for advice on the BAP. Questions towards COMAS might be better off with more detail. Such as, how difficult is it to breed and raise Peppermint Shrimp (Lysmata wurdemanni)? We in COMAS have far more experience with the actual hobby than we do the BAP. See where I'm going with this?
But that is FW. Saltwater is completely different. Sure, there are a few snails like limpets, stomatella, and collinista that you barely have to do anything to breed, but there are still others that would be highly desirable as an aquacultured specimen such as Cerith, Nassarius, Ilyanassa, and even the huge Queen Conch (Strombus gigas).
The point on experience is really what i was stearing towards, I honestly think that before anyone can begin a breeding program that experience is the key. No disrespect intended to the members of OKAA, but if the experience is lacking to figure out what constitutes what, then maybe the first step needs to be building that experience. I know that sounds condescending, and i have thought how to make it not come over as condescension, and its not meant as such...but do you see where i am going.
I think your time and effort would be better spent building a stable marine biotope than having as your first priority breeding the fish.
Please dont consider this as a negative response, I am just trying to stear you in a direction that may lead to your goal as opposed to frustration.
Paul.
I think your time and effort would be better spent building a stable marine biotope than having as your first priority breeding the fish.
Please dont consider this as a negative response, I am just trying to stear you in a direction that may lead to your goal as opposed to frustration.
Paul.
herpchat
New member
Actually I do not take anything you have said as condensending, in fact I would say you have articulated your view quite well.
I do think that could be a good intro into that BAP section.
As always I am like everyone else, I will do what I want or need to do but before I just submit some blanket BAP I will always try to research it first and ask opionions from "experts" before submitting anything for a vote. I do value the input I get here and you all are a great bunch of people.
The members that have told me that COMAS is not like OKAA are so right, just about everything about the clubs are different. I love both and would never think about not belonging to either.
Thanks for having such a wonderful club.
I do think that could be a good intro into that BAP section.
As always I am like everyone else, I will do what I want or need to do but before I just submit some blanket BAP I will always try to research it first and ask opionions from "experts" before submitting anything for a vote. I do value the input I get here and you all are a great bunch of people.
The members that have told me that COMAS is not like OKAA are so right, just about everything about the clubs are different. I love both and would never think about not belonging to either.
Thanks for having such a wonderful club.
