Take Live Rock Out of Sump?

d2mini

Premium Member
I have a 150g rubbermaid tub that i use as my sump. In the center of it sits a container that holds my skimmer with a constant water level, which is elevated in the sump by a couple milk crates. Surrounding this skimmer setup is a couple hundred lbs of live rock, with no way for me to remove detritus without removing all the live rock. Not to mention the detritus that will collect under the milk crates as well.

So the question is, is the benefit of having extra live rock in the sump outweighed by the problems created by detritus build up? I'm beginning to think the answer is a big fat YES.

If this is the case, should i remove the rock permanently and just leave the sump as a way to have a whole bunch of extra water for stability?




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Nice setup.....I'd try to leave it in there. Shut down the return pump and use a big pump to stir all the junk up and then a smaller pump is running water into a 200micron sock to pick all the junk out. I do this to the rock chamber in my sump about every other month and works great. With that much rock in there you might need several pumps stirring to keep everything suspended.
 
Not sure I really ever bought into the argument of having a big pile of rocks in the sump. I have never done it; just seems to end up being a source of nutrients. In the DT, live rock is exposed to flow, light, and fish/inverts picking at it and removing/consuming particles - none of which happens in your sump (or not as well). Unless your DT rockwork is insufficient to support necessary bacterial colonies, I don't see the point.
 
There are organisms which are beneficial to your aquarium in the live rock. The bacteria that process the nutrients. The pods that feed the DT. The worms that eat the detritus. These organisms impact your aquarium. If you think that your tank will not suffer from the removal of these organisms then go ahead and remove the rocks.

With your setup, drain in the bottom of the sump, you can flush water out of the sump by disconnecting the return pump and letting it drain. This process will remove much of the detritus from the sump and you could hose down the LR to remove more of the detritus form the bottom of the sump. If you let the detritus settle then you should be able to reuse much of your water, otherwise fill the sump with new saltwater and carry on.
 
There are organisms which are beneficial to your aquarium in the live rock. The bacteria that process the nutrients. The pods that feed the DT. The worms that eat the detritus. These organisms impact your aquarium.

Correct, but i have a lot of rock in my display, and more in the fuge which you can see in the pic. I'm wondering if these benefits are worth the cost of phosphate and nitrate issues, or the time it takes to keep up with it. I don't mind cleaning it out every couple months or whatever if i'm really gaining A LOT by having the rock in there. But if it's not making much difference, well...
 
Further to my point above, I'm not sure how a pile of rock in the sump is matterially different from running a wet/dry filter, and almost nobody does that anymore. BTW, love your fish room. Mine always ends up with that 'loads of crap' look.
 
Dennis you could pull the rock out really quickly and put egg crate down on PVC and a maxi jet or such under the egg crate. This way you still have the rock and can get to the debris since the rock is suspended. By doing it quickly you lessen the risk of exposed live rock

Corey
 
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I would think that simply having more live rock in your sump/refugium doesn't really affect nutrient production in any significant way. In fact, it may help somewhat by providing additional surface area for bacteria to form biofilms, which take up phosphate/nitrate from the tank water, are sloughed off, and removed from the system by the skimmer.

Moreover, LR in your sump is certainly providing more small critters for your coral to feed on than an empty plastic box, though whether it's necessary for your tank's health is debatable.
 
I'd leave it and just find a way to help keep the detritus suspended in the water column so that it gets moved/filtered. Maybe some powerheads? Getting the rocks up off the bottom and placing a powerhead underneath was a pretty cool solution too. I think the more rock in a complete system that you can keep in well circulated water, the better it is for the system as a whole.
 
I have all my rock rubble in milk crates in my sump, with some pvc pipe zip tied to the bottom of the crate to allow slow flow all around.

This allows me to keep my live rock, but allow detritus to settle on the bottom of the tank. I dont know why you would put a power head down there, your just stirring the stuff back up. If you let is all settle out, it is easily siphoned out, and not floating back into the main display.

also, with the rock in milk crates, I can easily lift out the rock all at once, swish it around for a good rinsing in the sump, then do a large water change and remove all the crud.
 
Nice setup.....I'd try to leave it in there. Shut down the return pump and use a big pump to stir all the junk up and then a smaller pump is running water into a 200micron sock to pick all the junk out. I do this to the rock chamber in my sump about every other month and works great. With that much rock in there you might need several pumps stirring to keep everything suspended.

I like this suggestion, about to put in a large sump and this sounds like an easy and practical solution.

Joe
 
W a small powerheads you could try to direct the debris to one area for easy siphoning was my thought.

Corey
 
Personally, I like the idea of massive amounts of live rock producing microfauna of various kinds. On the other hand, detritus buildup under the rock and on the rock itself is a potential problem.

I like the idea of putting the rock into milkcrates so that you can lift them out as needed for rinsing (in saltwater) or for siphoning out the crud underneath the rocks.

Alternatively, you could just add a couple of powerheads in the sump. I'm not sure why people use powerheads to blast their rockwork in the DT but let crud build up on the live rock in the sump. My refugium has a 6" DSB, 25 lbs of TBS live rock, and a Voyager 4 blasting flow in a gyre pattern. Crud doesn't settle out too much that way. There are more many pods and weird animals in there than I've had in any other refugium before.

I gotta find some way to come see your tank btw! Sell some frags sometime so that I have an excuse; or maybe charge admission like a museum :)
 
Personally, I like the idea of massive amounts of live rock producing microfauna of various kinds. On the other hand, detritus buildup under the rock and on the rock itself is a potential problem.

I like the idea of putting the rock into milkcrates so that you can lift them out as needed for rinsing (in saltwater) or for siphoning out the crud underneath the rocks.

Alternatively, you could just add a couple of powerheads in the sump. I'm not sure why people use powerheads to blast their rockwork in the DT but let crud build up on the live rock in the sump. My refugium has a 6" DSB, 25 lbs of TBS live rock, and a Voyager 4 blasting flow in a gyre pattern. Crud doesn't settle out too much that way. There are more many pods and weird animals in there than I've had in any other refugium before.

I gotta find some way to come see your tank btw! Sell some frags sometime so that I have an excuse; or maybe charge admission like a museum :)

I'm on the september tank tour (first stop i think) but you are welcome any time, lee. ;)

As to the powerheads.... i've thought of that. It's a big sump though, with the milk crates and skimmer box sitting right in the middle. I wonder which powerheads and how many would do the job?
 
With all the beneficial organisms like sponges and tunicates (read up on Tyree's Zonal System) I would go with the above suggestion of the keeping the rock and setting it on some eggcrate so you could flush the detritus out periodicly.

Assuming the detritus is largely fish poop there's the consideration it may be beneficial as a source of calcium carbonate: http://www.pnas.org/content/108/10/3865 Maybe you should just stir it up occasionally. :-/
 
Dennis try just a maxi jet or something. You just want to be able to get the stuff to go to one main area to make siphoning easy. That is what I think would be easiest.

Corey
 
Ok, here's what I'm thinking... throw a speedwave pump in there and connect the output to some 1/2" flex pvc that runs around the perimeter of the sump with 3-4 T fittings that will be aimed towards the center. So once I do an initial cleaning, I would think this would keep things suspended. Thoughts?
 
That or you could just run one pipe down the middle with holes cut in it in every which way. I think the flow under the rocks is a great idea but just make sure the detritus won't have a chance to settle under the pipe.

P.S. I saw your old tank a few weeks ago. I don't see how you ever let it go....
 
That or you could just run one pipe down the middle with holes cut in it in every which way. I think the flow under the rocks is a great idea but just make sure the detritus won't have a chance to settle under the pipe.

P.S. I saw your old tank a few weeks ago. I don't see how you ever let it go....

Oh yeah, that might work well too!
Would require less material.

You were over at 3CC i take it?
It was tough... but a new house with a new tank build made it easier. ;)
 
Yeah I was. Nemosworld introduce me to the place. I need to join MARSH soon. I always meet some of the members whenever I go there.

And yeah, I love building setups just as much as I like seeing them blossom. I don't blame you for going bigger. You could have kept both though.... :-)
 
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