Taking the ESV Salt plunge...
- Thread starter scolley
- Start date
Please post your findings, be it here or elsewhere. Would be good to know.
But I've probably made it sound more difficult than it has to be. Instead of my whole ordeal of determining your exact RO/DI volume, you might just estimate and adjust instead. I'll wager that you could estimate (on the low side), mix, and take a salinity reading. And then just add salt until you got to 1.0256. If that took 10% additional salt, add 10% of everything else. Or something like that.
Pls let us know how it works out.
First "Observed" results
First "Observed" results
OK. I'm a newbie. Will have had water in my first reef tank for a year in about two weeks. So my ability to observe changes in my tank MUST be viewed with a dubious eye. But I'm also pretty experienced with planted freshwater tanks, and they can be tougher than than reef tanks to be successful with (as far as I can tell to date, if you define success as nuisance algae free and everything growing). So I am a practiced observer of conditions in my tanks. That said...
I've been performing my small daily w/c's with ESV for 3 days now, putting the reservoir of Reef Crystals mix out to pasture. In order to speed up the change over process, a day and a half ago I switched that auto w/c mechanism from doing one small daily change to two. I'd have to go dig to find out exactly how much I was changing a day, but it sets me up for a 25-30% w/c per month. A bit closer to 30 as I recall. But with the doubling of w/c frequency, now it's happening at a rate of something less than 50-60% a month. But I can already see changes...
First, Ca and Alk (particularly Ca) have been dropping quickly. This has led me to additional doses of 2-part, above an beyond my daily doses. Since ESV mix has lower levels of both than Reef Crystals, I was anticipating this need. But not on the first day -due to the tiny w/c rate - much less the second day, followed by the third. I'm definitely chasing the dragon here... fighting to keep my levels constant, without over shooting. It's worth mentioning that the extra pops of Ca changes have not risen my ppm by more than 10-12 ppm. So it's a good sized change in 10 minutes, but not earth shattering either.
Second, I've got a particularly nice colony of large, long polyped, duncans. Over the last 2 or 3 days they have withdrawn, and pretty much stayed that way. Other than the tiny addition of ESV, and the daily extra punches of Ca and Alk, nothing has changed.
Third, my sps appear to be exploding. That is relative to the very slow explosion that would apply to any sps. I've got three pink birdsnests, all given to me within the last 30 days. Each has pretty much acclimated, put out polps in their new home, and seemed unexceptional. But in the last 3 days all three colonies have put out white tips at every point. Granted, this could be die-off at the tips, or it could be rapid growth. I'm a newbie, and wouldn't know. What I can tell you for sure is that it looks like new growth, and was not there even 2 days ago.
What's worse, I've got a tiny bit of monti that has put on 1/3 extra growth in 3 days. Granted, we're talking about a coral the size of a quarter being a quarter and a third now. But this is a LITTLE tank - not much can miss my observation. And I look at it a good while every day. This is a CHANGE.
So, how you can explain such observations should be a subject of speculation; newbie foolishness, micro nutrient starved sps, ca shocked lps? I dunno. Your decision. I just wanted to pass the observations along for the community.
I'm sure 30 more days of watching will tell the tale.
First "Observed" results
OK. I'm a newbie. Will have had water in my first reef tank for a year in about two weeks. So my ability to observe changes in my tank MUST be viewed with a dubious eye. But I'm also pretty experienced with planted freshwater tanks, and they can be tougher than than reef tanks to be successful with (as far as I can tell to date, if you define success as nuisance algae free and everything growing). So I am a practiced observer of conditions in my tanks. That said...
I've been performing my small daily w/c's with ESV for 3 days now, putting the reservoir of Reef Crystals mix out to pasture. In order to speed up the change over process, a day and a half ago I switched that auto w/c mechanism from doing one small daily change to two. I'd have to go dig to find out exactly how much I was changing a day, but it sets me up for a 25-30% w/c per month. A bit closer to 30 as I recall. But with the doubling of w/c frequency, now it's happening at a rate of something less than 50-60% a month. But I can already see changes...
First, Ca and Alk (particularly Ca) have been dropping quickly. This has led me to additional doses of 2-part, above an beyond my daily doses. Since ESV mix has lower levels of both than Reef Crystals, I was anticipating this need. But not on the first day -due to the tiny w/c rate - much less the second day, followed by the third. I'm definitely chasing the dragon here... fighting to keep my levels constant, without over shooting. It's worth mentioning that the extra pops of Ca changes have not risen my ppm by more than 10-12 ppm. So it's a good sized change in 10 minutes, but not earth shattering either.
Second, I've got a particularly nice colony of large, long polyped, duncans. Over the last 2 or 3 days they have withdrawn, and pretty much stayed that way. Other than the tiny addition of ESV, and the daily extra punches of Ca and Alk, nothing has changed.
Third, my sps appear to be exploding. That is relative to the very slow explosion that would apply to any sps.
I've got three pink birdsnests, all given to me within the last 30 days. Each has pretty much acclimated, put out polps in their new home, and seemed unexceptional. But in the last 3 days all three colonies have put out white tips at every point. Granted, this could be die-off at the tips, or it could be rapid growth. I'm a newbie, and wouldn't know. What I can tell you for sure is that it looks like new growth, and was not there even 2 days ago.What's worse, I've got a tiny bit of monti that has put on 1/3 extra growth in 3 days. Granted, we're talking about a coral the size of a quarter being a quarter and a third now. But this is a LITTLE tank - not much can miss my observation. And I look at it a good while every day. This is a CHANGE.
So, how you can explain such observations should be a subject of speculation; newbie foolishness, micro nutrient starved sps, ca shocked lps? I dunno. Your decision. I just wanted to pass the observations along for the community.
I'm sure 30 more days of watching will tell the tale.
I don't think the continued circulation is even necessary Rich - not for mixing anyway. If you are trying to get the water aerated and/or warmed up for the tank, you could start circulating/warming an hour or two before use and achieve that.
I think you'll find - as I did - that after the 10-20 minutes needed to mix this stuff, it's pretty much crystal clear. I've been pretty shocked as I look into my mix container, as it looks like... well... to be blunt... like water. Absolutely, totally, sparkling, crystal clear water. And obviously sediment free too!
That never happened with my old mix. Even when it had been mixed for days, it never had the clarity this stuff has. If you're starting with RO/DI... you'll see.
I think you'll find - as I did - that after the 10-20 minutes needed to mix this stuff, it's pretty much crystal clear. I've been pretty shocked as I look into my mix container, as it looks like... well... to be blunt... like water. Absolutely, totally, sparkling, crystal clear water. And obviously sediment free too!
That never happened with my old mix. Even when it had been mixed for days, it never had the clarity this stuff has. If you're starting with RO/DI... you'll see.
Obi-dad
Active member
The clarity sounds interesting, even though I have had success with different salts including reef crystals, they typically have residue at the bottom of the Brute.
But I don't think this will suit my style of water changes, I don't mix up a set amount and then change that whole amount. I do around 3g changes. Then when the mix in the Brute runs low I put more water in and add salt - I have some mixed salt water left in the Brute, so I don't know how many gallons of RODI I'm putting in. That would leave me out of the calculations on how much salt mix to add.
But I don't think this will suit my style of water changes, I don't mix up a set amount and then change that whole amount. I do around 3g changes. Then when the mix in the Brute runs low I put more water in and add salt - I have some mixed salt water left in the Brute, so I don't know how many gallons of RODI I'm putting in. That would leave me out of the calculations on how much salt mix to add.
Gregg, under the assumption that you really do need to mix this stuff in the order shown in the instructions, then I believe you have hit the nail on the head for a lot of people. If you don't begin your salt mixing process with a known quantity of RO/DI, then this mix will not work for you.
Now if the mixing order is not that important, then for people this salt will just be a major PITA for people that don't start mixing with an known quantity of RO/DI. But I'd swear I read somewhere that for at least some of the four components of this mix, the mixing order is not arbitrary, and does actually matter. But please don't take my word for that.
Oh yeah... those white tips on my Bird's nests, it's not die back. It's growth. Rapid growth, new little tips popping out all over. Faster than I've ever seen on an SPS in this tank. Don't know what the magic is, but something has made a difference. And given the very small amounts of ESV that has gone into my tank (maybe 3 gallons so far) I'll wager it's not so much about taking RC out, as it is about something new (or adequate amounts) being in the ESV that the RC was lacking.
I'm suspecting trace elements of some form. And since I don't put ANY additives in my water other than BRS 2-part with occasional Mg, that does not seem like such a stretch.
Now if the mixing order is not that important, then for people this salt will just be a major PITA for people that don't start mixing with an known quantity of RO/DI. But I'd swear I read somewhere that for at least some of the four components of this mix, the mixing order is not arbitrary, and does actually matter. But please don't take my word for that.
Oh yeah... those white tips on my Bird's nests, it's not die back. It's growth. Rapid growth, new little tips popping out all over. Faster than I've ever seen on an SPS in this tank. Don't know what the magic is, but something has made a difference. And given the very small amounts of ESV that has gone into my tank (maybe 3 gallons so far) I'll wager it's not so much about taking RC out, as it is about something new (or adequate amounts) being in the ESV that the RC was lacking.
I'm suspecting trace elements of some form. And since I don't put ANY additives in my water other than BRS 2-part with occasional Mg, that does not seem like such a stretch.
tank o tang
Thread Lurker
If you want to know if it mixes consistant than why not mix up a few 5gal buckets test them, then if all is well you can dump them into the bigger container.
RTMA
DIY Fanatic
Is that the ORA Pink one I gave you? Exciting!
That's a good idea. I've doubled up on my water changes, so that may not be necessary. I'll be making my 2nd batch soon. But if not I'll definitely give your idea a whirl. Thanks.
Yes an no. No sooner than you gave me that frag, and Seth came over and brought two MORE pink Bird's nest frags! Maybe not ORA, but nice frags also. And the rapid growth is happening to all three frags. It's kind of wild really. I've never had acro's grow in my tank at any real speed. But relatively speaking, these things are taking off now. Next time you come by you'll see - white tips everywhere.
Too cool.
clittrell
Member
Have you ever thought of one of these? I do not know anything about it but it says it will give you volume of water. Then you could make any size batch you wanted. I do like the HM dual online TDS meter so this might be good.
http://www.tdsmeter.com/products/fm2.html
Just a thought,
http://www.tdsmeter.com/products/fm2.html
Just a thought,
Nope. I've never SEEN one of those! But it's clearly one possible way to use this salt to best advantage. Thanks for sharing that.
The bottom line is... this salt appears to up-end the normal salt mixing equation. Where most people begin with an approximated - but unknown - volume of water, and add salt until the levels are correct... this salt seems to require beginning with a precisely understood volume of water. That means mixing in a known volume of mix to a known volume of water once only, but eliminates the normally repetitive add-then-test cycles of normal salt mixing.
The bottom line is... this salt appears to up-end the normal salt mixing equation. Where most people begin with an approximated - but unknown - volume of water, and add salt until the levels are correct... this salt seems to require beginning with a precisely understood volume of water. That means mixing in a known volume of mix to a known volume of water once only, but eliminates the normally repetitive add-then-test cycles of normal salt mixing.
connecticut cichlids
Craft Beer Geek
I had Great results with the esv mix. I have (2) 200g kits leftover. Steve, free to both you, and Jeff, if you can get him to try it!
Jim
Jim
Hey thanks Jim, that's a kind offer! And an interesting challenge! Jeff sounds pretty adamant about not wanting to go to this trouble. But he HATES his Reef Crystals. Maybe after a month or two of me doing this, and showing him it's not so hard, I can "convert" him.
Don't lose those boxes! I'm gonna try!
(Jeff - are you listening?)
2nd Batch: Low salinity partly my own fault
2nd Batch: Low salinity partly my own fault
ESV's instructions say it's mixing to 1.0256 @ 77 degrees. But in my first batch I had to add an additional 1 cup to 5 cups, 2 tsp called for in the mix instructions to bring my water a little above 1.025. It initially mixed to around 1.021.
Yesterday I mixed up my<sup></sup> 2nd batch, and it too mixed to about 1.021. ESV's instructions "“ see my 2nd post "“ clearly states "œTest and adjust salinity if necessary" after the mixing is complete. So wondering if this was something that they considered "œnormal" I gave ESV a call, and spoke to two very nice, VERY helpful gentlemen "“ Rich and Bob. They indicated that what I was experiencing was DEFINITELY not normal, and that following their instructions my salt should mix to something very close to their stated levels.
Realizing something was wrong, I began the process of questioning everything. My initial RO/DI volume, the accuracy of the measuring spoons. The accuracy of the ESV measuring cup. You name it.
I did a massively, painstakingly detailed physical measurement of my mixing container. Where I had previously calculated its volume (when full of RO/DI) to be 16.79 gallons, I found it to be closer to 17.04. That means I was starting with 1/4 gallon more than I was mixing for. That's about a 1.5% error. Not much. Material, but I something else was wrong.
Then I used my gram scale to weight ESV's 250ml measuring cup full of water. It weighed exactly 250.0 grams. Perfect. That is a strong indication that my scale is accurate, and so is ESV's cup. So that's not it.
Then I weighed a cup of ESV's salt, measuring the cup out with ESV's supplied measuring cup. It weighed 299 grams. By ESV's calculation it should be 302 grams. OK. Off by 3 grams. Meaning that in using their measuring cup, I was providing 1% too little salt.
So far I'd figured out reasons for my salt mix being 2.5% too low. But my mixing was coming out more lit 20% too low. Something else was wrong. And then I found it"¦ a REAL problem.
When I mix salt, first I always calibrate my refractometer with Pinpoint 53.0 Calibration Fluid. Then I test my salt, and then I test the calibration fluid again. If the final test does not show the calibration fluid at 35 ppt, I recalibrate and start over. I'm a real stickler for making sure I've got a good reading. I'd been using this particular bottle of calibration fluit since I started my tank about year ago. And I've got two spare bottles too. So I ripped the plastic baggie off a spare bottle (it was shipped in the airtight plastic bag), and took a reading"¦
WOW!
It was WAY LOW! So I tested the other spare bottle. It too was way low. Wow. There was only one conclusion "“ over time, my calibration solution has been evaporating, increasing the salinity of the solution. Recalibrating with the newly opened bottles, I found the old bottle to be causing me to take readings about 0.002 sg too low. Uh oh.
So when I thought the ESV was mixing to 2.021, it was actually mixing to 2.023!
<o></o>
Well, that closes the gap. I still had to add 1/2 cup additional salt to get the mix up to 1.025 today. So something else is still wrong. But I've cut the error in half.
And I learned that I've got to start storing my calibration fluid in air tight baggies. Lean something every day.
But my bigger problem is my tank. Realizing that I've been using bad calibration solution, I was shocked to find that my tank is over 1.027, pushing 1.028. And it looks great! Go figure. And I'm lucky I figured this one out. Eventually I'd have killed everything, and would have been scratching my head trying to figure out why.
2nd Batch: Low salinity partly my own fault
ESV's instructions say it's mixing to 1.0256 @ 77 degrees. But in my first batch I had to add an additional 1 cup to 5 cups, 2 tsp called for in the mix instructions to bring my water a little above 1.025. It initially mixed to around 1.021.
Yesterday I mixed up my<sup></sup> 2nd batch, and it too mixed to about 1.021. ESV's instructions "“ see my 2nd post "“ clearly states "œTest and adjust salinity if necessary" after the mixing is complete. So wondering if this was something that they considered "œnormal" I gave ESV a call, and spoke to two very nice, VERY helpful gentlemen "“ Rich and Bob. They indicated that what I was experiencing was DEFINITELY not normal, and that following their instructions my salt should mix to something very close to their stated levels.
Realizing something was wrong, I began the process of questioning everything. My initial RO/DI volume, the accuracy of the measuring spoons. The accuracy of the ESV measuring cup. You name it.
I did a massively, painstakingly detailed physical measurement of my mixing container. Where I had previously calculated its volume (when full of RO/DI) to be 16.79 gallons, I found it to be closer to 17.04. That means I was starting with 1/4 gallon more than I was mixing for. That's about a 1.5% error. Not much. Material, but I something else was wrong.
Then I used my gram scale to weight ESV's 250ml measuring cup full of water. It weighed exactly 250.0 grams. Perfect. That is a strong indication that my scale is accurate, and so is ESV's cup. So that's not it.
Then I weighed a cup of ESV's salt, measuring the cup out with ESV's supplied measuring cup. It weighed 299 grams. By ESV's calculation it should be 302 grams. OK. Off by 3 grams. Meaning that in using their measuring cup, I was providing 1% too little salt.
So far I'd figured out reasons for my salt mix being 2.5% too low. But my mixing was coming out more lit 20% too low. Something else was wrong. And then I found it"¦ a REAL problem.
When I mix salt, first I always calibrate my refractometer with Pinpoint 53.0 Calibration Fluid. Then I test my salt, and then I test the calibration fluid again. If the final test does not show the calibration fluid at 35 ppt, I recalibrate and start over. I'm a real stickler for making sure I've got a good reading. I'd been using this particular bottle of calibration fluit since I started my tank about year ago. And I've got two spare bottles too. So I ripped the plastic baggie off a spare bottle (it was shipped in the airtight plastic bag), and took a reading"¦
WOW!
It was WAY LOW! So I tested the other spare bottle. It too was way low. Wow. There was only one conclusion "“ over time, my calibration solution has been evaporating, increasing the salinity of the solution. Recalibrating with the newly opened bottles, I found the old bottle to be causing me to take readings about 0.002 sg too low. Uh oh.
So when I thought the ESV was mixing to 2.021, it was actually mixing to 2.023!
<o></o>
Well, that closes the gap. I still had to add 1/2 cup additional salt to get the mix up to 1.025 today. So something else is still wrong. But I've cut the error in half.
And I learned that I've got to start storing my calibration fluid in air tight baggies. Lean something every day.
But my bigger problem is my tank. Realizing that I've been using bad calibration solution, I was shocked to find that my tank is over 1.027, pushing 1.028. And it looks great! Go figure. And I'm lucky I figured this one out. Eventually I'd have killed everything, and would have been scratching my head trying to figure out why.
tank o tang
Thread Lurker
Thanks for the offer but that is way more work than I want to try. Before I try this salt you will see me dragging buckets out of the sound (I really do want to try this). I switched to oceanic (seemed to be what most in the club were happy with) about 3 buckets ago and am very happy so far.
Don-Coraleone
New member
No you won't......
2nd Batch: Timings
2nd Batch: Timings
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table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> My hope has been that while this product requires a lot of mixing, that the quality of the components would be sufficient to eliminate the time consuming "œmix "“test "“ tweak mix "“ wait 12/24 hrs - test "“ tweak again - repeat" cycle that salt mixing has been for me to this point. Yet even if it does prove consistent enough to eliminate testing you still have to look at the time it takes to mix this stuff up. So this time I timed it.
NOT including testing, but just mixing, total duration was 55 minutes for this last batch. Of that 25 minutes were involved in measuring, pouring, cleaning measuring tools. The additional 30 minutes were two "œwait" periods of 15 minutes, one after adding the Sodium Chloride, one after the Magnesium Sulfate. So technically I was only doing something for 25 minutes, yet as long as I continue to wait 15 minutes after those two components, the duration of the process is going to just under an hour.
Is that a time savings for me? I don't think so. But IF my mixing becomes so consistent that I don't have to test after mixing, this WILL be massively preferable to my old process of testing and tweaking, which generally took me a few days to finish a batch.
2nd Batch: Timings
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mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> My hope has been that while this product requires a lot of mixing, that the quality of the components would be sufficient to eliminate the time consuming "œmix "“test "“ tweak mix "“ wait 12/24 hrs - test "“ tweak again - repeat" cycle that salt mixing has been for me to this point. Yet even if it does prove consistent enough to eliminate testing you still have to look at the time it takes to mix this stuff up. So this time I timed it.NOT including testing, but just mixing, total duration was 55 minutes for this last batch. Of that 25 minutes were involved in measuring, pouring, cleaning measuring tools. The additional 30 minutes were two "œwait" periods of 15 minutes, one after adding the Sodium Chloride, one after the Magnesium Sulfate. So technically I was only doing something for 25 minutes, yet as long as I continue to wait 15 minutes after those two components, the duration of the process is going to just under an hour.
Is that a time savings for me? I don't think so. But IF my mixing becomes so consistent that I don't have to test after mixing, this WILL be massively preferable to my old process of testing and tweaking, which generally took me a few days to finish a batch.
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