Taking the ESV Salt plunge...
- Thread starter scolley
- Start date
Thanks! We're having our October ARKSC meeting at my place this Saturday. Look for the October Meeting thread in this forum. Anyway...
I figured I'd mix up my next batch at the meeting. That way some other people can judge just how big a PITA this is. Or not. Will be good to get other impressions. Anyone in the area is welcome, so if anyone's reading this thread, is nearby, and would like to see said mixing themselves, you might consider dropping by.
I figured I'd mix up my next batch at the meeting. That way some other people can judge just how big a PITA this is. Or not. Will be good to get other impressions. Anyone in the area is welcome, so if anyone's reading this thread, is nearby, and would like to see said mixing themselves, you might consider dropping by.
Wow! Your timing for asking is quite the coincidence.
It just so happens that I'm waiting for a delivery of more salt tomorrow. As you know, this salt comes in four parts; 2 solid, 2 liquid.
I buy what ESV markets as "200g" volumes. The documentation that comes with that provides a chart that claims to provide the mixing necessary for a mix of 1.0256 salinity. In actual fact it mixes to a salinity far lower than that. Please don't take my word for that. Do a search. Bottom line, ESV is stating their salinity incorrectly.
Since I target a salinity of 1.025, every time I mix, I have to mix more of their solid NaCl than their charts call for. I've only got a little tank, so it's taken a while... But I finally crossed an interesting threshold.
I'm waiting from my new shipment because I'm out of BaCk. Not their other solid product. Not either of their 2 liquid products. I've got plenty of that. Its the NaCl that's need, and only that. And why is that? ESV packages their product to for a mix of something like 1.0225. Maybe 1.023.
While that speaks worlds about the vendor (its not like they could be unaware of this), I'm very happy with the salt. SPS growth picked up and stayed that way over my prior salt.
You DO have to fall into repeatable behaviors. Once you figure out your mixing volumes, you just stick with it and repeat it... X amount of RO/DI, Y amount of NaCl, Z of the other solid, A of one liquid, B of the other. Easy.
The other factor is mixing. Just yesterday I was discussing this with a local reefer. He felt he was mixing his in 5 minutes. But he was mixing small volumes, and was spending that whole 5 minutes slowly adding ingredients.
I've adopted a different route. It takes me longer, but with less effort. I just dump the 1st solid in and walk away. An hour later I dump in the 2nd solid, and walk away. 30 minutes later I dump in the 1st liquid. 5 minutes later I dump in the last liquid. I let that mix for 5 minutes and I'm done. Not super fast. But pretty easy.
I'm not an experienced reefer, so I can't hold my tank up as a shining example of a great reef. But I've got ZERO nuesance algae. ZERO diatoms. GREAT SPS polyp extension. Does that make this the best salt? Of course not. Does this show that it is a good salt... YES.
It just so happens that I'm waiting for a delivery of more salt tomorrow. As you know, this salt comes in four parts; 2 solid, 2 liquid.
I buy what ESV markets as "200g" volumes. The documentation that comes with that provides a chart that claims to provide the mixing necessary for a mix of 1.0256 salinity. In actual fact it mixes to a salinity far lower than that. Please don't take my word for that. Do a search. Bottom line, ESV is stating their salinity incorrectly.
Since I target a salinity of 1.025, every time I mix, I have to mix more of their solid NaCl than their charts call for. I've only got a little tank, so it's taken a while... But I finally crossed an interesting threshold.
I'm waiting from my new shipment because I'm out of BaCk. Not their other solid product. Not either of their 2 liquid products. I've got plenty of that. Its the NaCl that's need, and only that. And why is that? ESV packages their product to for a mix of something like 1.0225. Maybe 1.023.
While that speaks worlds about the vendor (its not like they could be unaware of this), I'm very happy with the salt. SPS growth picked up and stayed that way over my prior salt.
You DO have to fall into repeatable behaviors. Once you figure out your mixing volumes, you just stick with it and repeat it... X amount of RO/DI, Y amount of NaCl, Z of the other solid, A of one liquid, B of the other. Easy.
The other factor is mixing. Just yesterday I was discussing this with a local reefer. He felt he was mixing his in 5 minutes. But he was mixing small volumes, and was spending that whole 5 minutes slowly adding ingredients.
I've adopted a different route. It takes me longer, but with less effort. I just dump the 1st solid in and walk away. An hour later I dump in the 2nd solid, and walk away. 30 minutes later I dump in the 1st liquid. 5 minutes later I dump in the last liquid. I let that mix for 5 minutes and I'm done. Not super fast. But pretty easy.
I'm not an experienced reefer, so I can't hold my tank up as a shining example of a great reef. But I've got ZERO nuesance algae. ZERO diatoms. GREAT SPS polyp extension. Does that make this the best salt? Of course not. Does this show that it is a good salt... YES.
terahz
1x10^12 Hz
I agree, something is a bit off with their chart, however I'm not sure if it is the sodium chloride or the magnesium sulfate since both affect it. Here is a little test I did:
Making 1G of salt water using metric weight measurements with 2 scales (one with 1g resolution, the other with 0.1g resolution) to verify weight:
Using the values in the chart I get:
Temp 70F
Sal 1.023SG (31ppt)
Alk 3.32meq/l (9.296dKH)
Mg 1290ppm
Ca 480ppm
I feel like this is a bit too low Mg, so I increase the Mg to about 1400 (adding about 15% more MagSulfate). That makes the salinity go to 34ppm, which is what they say it should be.
Anyway, just thought I'd mention it.
Making 1G of salt water using metric weight measurements with 2 scales (one with 1g resolution, the other with 0.1g resolution) to verify weight:
Using the values in the chart I get:
Temp 70F
Sal 1.023SG (31ppt)
Alk 3.32meq/l (9.296dKH)
Mg 1290ppm
Ca 480ppm
I feel like this is a bit too low Mg, so I increase the Mg to about 1400 (adding about 15% more MagSulfate). That makes the salinity go to 34ppm, which is what they say it should be.
Anyway, just thought I'd mention it.
Interesting... so I should be adding extra of both the solids? Not just the NaCl? That implies that I would add what ever the proportional additional liquid too.
Cool! That fixes my problem of being out of everything but NaCl. Thanks!
FWIW - when I said "because I'm out of BaCk", that was the spell check on my mobile device messing me up. Sorry. "BaCk" was supposed to be NaCl.
Now I've got to go recalculate my mix volumes. ESV suggests using less RO/DI. That sounds good, except - like I'll assume many people - I'm starting with a volume of water that is determined by a float valve. I can't use less. I'm just going to figure out how much more of everything else I need.
Cool! That fixes my problem of being out of everything but NaCl. Thanks!
FWIW - when I said "because I'm out of BaCk", that was the spell check on my mobile device messing me up. Sorry. "BaCk" was supposed to be NaCl.
Now I've got to go recalculate my mix volumes. ESV suggests using less RO/DI. That sounds good, except - like I'll assume many people - I'm starting with a volume of water that is determined by a float valve. I can't use less. I'm just going to figure out how much more of everything else I need.
terahz
1x10^12 Hz
Well, as I said, all it takes for me is to add about 15% mag. I believe the two liquids are basically Ca and Alk plus whatever trace elements they put. Ca seems to be high already and Alk is in range, so I don't add more of the liquids.
All I do is add 15% to the mag value in the chart. If I run out of it, just use MagCh from BRS to finish the rest of the components
All I do is add 15% to the mag value in the chart. If I run out of it, just use MagCh from BRS to finish the rest of the components
knockout
Really Cool Stuff!
no science behind my findings (and that of a fellow reefer) but after using the salt for close to a year I find my alk as low as it has ever been 4.5 dkh and my cal as high as 650, I must admit I don't test a lot and I let my corals do the talking
About a month back I noticed my montipora corals not doing so good, tested and that is what I found, a few months back a friend who I thought was nuts for testing daily was going thru a low alk super high calcium in his system at the time I attributed to his over zealous eye on the tank but finding myself on the same situation and my keep it as simple as possible approach I find myself switching out to a different salt mix, he has his tank normalized after a few water changes with a different salt mix, hope is the same for me, currently my alk level is at 6 after going back to my kalk reactor and calcium has been dropping steadily and currently at 500, my second water change is tonight using a different "high end" salt mix
any one else with the same issues?
the mixing of the salt IS easy, I dump the first ingredient and walk away watch a game or something, add the second ingredient when I remember, come back when I remember add the third, hang around for a few minutes and the forth, water change later or the next day, I can see how some people can become impatient if you want to mix it all at once, but I find it easy if you just take your time with it, I lay all four components out and put away as I add them, no need for check boxes or anything.
About a month back I noticed my montipora corals not doing so good, tested and that is what I found, a few months back a friend who I thought was nuts for testing daily was going thru a low alk super high calcium in his system at the time I attributed to his over zealous eye on the tank but finding myself on the same situation and my keep it as simple as possible approach I find myself switching out to a different salt mix, he has his tank normalized after a few water changes with a different salt mix, hope is the same for me, currently my alk level is at 6 after going back to my kalk reactor and calcium has been dropping steadily and currently at 500, my second water change is tonight using a different "high end" salt mix
any one else with the same issues?
the mixing of the salt IS easy, I dump the first ingredient and walk away watch a game or something, add the second ingredient when I remember, come back when I remember add the third, hang around for a few minutes and the forth, water change later or the next day, I can see how some people can become impatient if you want to mix it all at once, but I find it easy if you just take your time with it, I lay all four components out and put away as I add them, no need for check boxes or anything.
RTMA
DIY Fanatic
So the four parts you add separately are the actual salt, Alk, Calcium and Magnesium. Sounds interesting. I do get the residue with Oceanic, but it doesn't really bother me, I just clean it out every few months.
I am actually surprised that ESV would under-report their Salinity in the mixing directions. You would think that this would cause a potential legal issue.
I am actually surprised that ESV would under-report their Salinity in the mixing directions. You would think that this would cause a potential legal issue.
howze01
New member
Great thread!
I've been making the switch to ESV for about 2 weeks now so not much data to report. I do have one question that I'm hoping you guys may be able to answer. I was considering using Epsom Salts as a Mag supplement. After reading about it, it seems that the buildup of sulfate was a major drawback. I decided not use it for that reason. Well, it seems that the Mag component of ESV is Epsom Salt. Anyone have any problems with this? Maybe the additional Mag your supplementing is Mag chloride so it works itself out? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
I've been making the switch to ESV for about 2 weeks now so not much data to report. I do have one question that I'm hoping you guys may be able to answer. I was considering using Epsom Salts as a Mag supplement. After reading about it, it seems that the buildup of sulfate was a major drawback. I decided not use it for that reason. Well, it seems that the Mag component of ESV is Epsom Salt. Anyone have any problems with this? Maybe the additional Mag your supplementing is Mag chloride so it works itself out? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
RTMA
DIY Fanatic
I follow Randy's Magnesium article here for adding. It's a very good read.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-07/rhf/index.php
The excerpt for dosing in the correct ratios for NSW.
"A certain mixture of magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate has no net effect on seawater's major anions (chloride and sulfate). All that is necessary for such a recipe is to add these two ingredients in such a ratio that they add chloride and sulfate in the ratio naturally present in seawater (which is 7.1 to 1 on a weight basis and 9.6 to 1 on a per ion basis).
To perfect such a recipe, it's imperative to know the amounts of sulfate in Epsom salts (39%), the amount of chloride in magnesium chloride hexahydrate (34.9%), and their bulk densities, because most aquarists will use a volume based measurement (1.05 g/cm3 for Epsom salts and 0.85 g/cm3 for magnesium chloride hexahydrate solids). Taking all these factors into account, the desired volume ratio is 10:1, MAG flake to Epsom salts, as a supplement; for instance, 10 cups MAG flake and 1 cup Epsom salts."
So essentially if you are supplementing any salt mix for MG, I would do it with that mixture.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-07/rhf/index.php
The excerpt for dosing in the correct ratios for NSW.
"A certain mixture of magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate has no net effect on seawater's major anions (chloride and sulfate). All that is necessary for such a recipe is to add these two ingredients in such a ratio that they add chloride and sulfate in the ratio naturally present in seawater (which is 7.1 to 1 on a weight basis and 9.6 to 1 on a per ion basis).
To perfect such a recipe, it's imperative to know the amounts of sulfate in Epsom salts (39%), the amount of chloride in magnesium chloride hexahydrate (34.9%), and their bulk densities, because most aquarists will use a volume based measurement (1.05 g/cm3 for Epsom salts and 0.85 g/cm3 for magnesium chloride hexahydrate solids). Taking all these factors into account, the desired volume ratio is 10:1, MAG flake to Epsom salts, as a supplement; for instance, 10 cups MAG flake and 1 cup Epsom salts."
So essentially if you are supplementing any salt mix for MG, I would do it with that mixture.
njudson
New member
When I tested freshly mixed ESV at ~1.025 with a Salifert test I get Mag around 1400. Since making the switch I have not had a need to add the Tech M I normally use.
I also am able to mix it up to this salinity following the directions exactly. I test with a calibrated refractometer but it is possible that I am starting with less than the 4.9 gallons of RODI the recipe calls for to make 5 gallons as I do not have an accurate measure of my bucket size.
If my salinity came out low on a batch I would likely supplement with some old Tropic Marin I have around to bump it up.
The one problem I do have that may be related to this salt is what Knockout mentioned about chronic low Alk.
I also am able to mix it up to this salinity following the directions exactly. I test with a calibrated refractometer but it is possible that I am starting with less than the 4.9 gallons of RODI the recipe calls for to make 5 gallons as I do not have an accurate measure of my bucket size.
If my salinity came out low on a batch I would likely supplement with some old Tropic Marin I have around to bump it up.
The one problem I do have that may be related to this salt is what Knockout mentioned about chronic low Alk.
howze01
New member
Thanks RTMA! That's a good read. My problem that I'm having is that I'm not supplementing the MG, I'm wondering if what ESV provides is going to cause a problem in the future. Whan mixing the MG component should I just do away with the MG Sulfate and mix my own? If ESV is one of the better salt mixes out there why would they use just straight Epsom as the MG component?
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