Tank devastated by paly toxins (and my stupidity)

[Gary Majchrzak]

Why did I have one SPS (in the middle of the others) that remained unscathed?

which SPS remained unscathed- the Lithophyllon?

 

[Sport507]

Thank you Steve.

To answer what appeared to be a question of sorts. The turnover on that filter is about 250-300 GPH depending on the charge of powder you use.

 

[gtphale]

wow that really sucks glad to hear your going to be able to rebuild it

 

[NatureNerd]

Sorry for the losses. I struggled with the same "weed" for years. I really hate these guys. I tried to scrape them off rocks, always being super careful not to get the toxins on me. I never realized the risk I was exposing my tank to. Thanks for sharing the lesson.

As a side note... In the end, I threw away the rock that originally had the paly's on it, because they kept growing back.

I'm sure your tank will return to better than it was.

 

[NatureNerd]

Would Kalk paste kill them safely, or same problem?

I was told that Kalk paste would not work as they would release their toxins as the kalk burns them and later as they die. This is not personal experience but what a trusted source from a LFS told me.

 

[scolley]

which SPS remained unscathed- the Lithophyllon?

You know... I never really thought about the Lithophyollon as an SPS. But I guess it is. So there were TWO sps that did ok. The lithophyollon, which looked a bit pale and burned, but was fine in a day or two. But the other previously unnamed SPS was the little green one in the pic below above the Bird Nests (1 day before the aweful event). I'm afraid it's a frag given to me fairly recently, and I don't know what it is. But it's fine today. All the other SPS (except the Lithophyollon) got ripped out today.

BTW - that's a pretty good shot of the offending paly too.

The turnover on that filter is about 250-300 GPH depending on the charge of powder you use.

On a 29g DT, I'm sure that would have helped a LOT. The only question I suppose... it how much.

wow that really sucks glad to hear your going to be able to rebuild it

Thanks. Rebuild will be fun. :thumbsup:

I tried to scrape them off rocks, always being super careful not to get the toxins on me. I never realized the risk I was exposing my tank to. Thanks for sharing the lesson.

As a side note... In the end, I threw away the rock that originally had the paly's on it, because they kept growing back.

I'm sure your tank will return to better than it was.

I'm not sure why experiences vary. It seems a reasonable assumption that all palys are not created equally toxic. And maybe I lost that coin toss. Or maybe my cutting off so many left more toxic goo than happens with cutting off a few as you mentioned. Seems to stand to reason.

Did you cut them off in - or out of - your tank?

I was told that Kalk paste would not work as they would release their toxins as the kalk burns them and later as they die. This is not personal experience but what a trusted source from a LFS told me.

That's what I was afraid of. I figured if they were filled with bad stuff, it didn't matter much how I killed them... just that killing them in my tank was bad.

 

[NatureNerd]

I cut them off outside the tank and then used water from my last water change to rinse off the rock. I dipped the rock in a bucket of the old water and swished it around for a few seconds. I think I just got lucky or mine were not as toxic. Mine kept coming back so I got rid of the rock even though it was the largest in my tank.

You might have saved others from disaster. Thanks.

 

[scolley]

I think I just got lucky or mine were not as toxic.

I'm assuming that is what the issue is. You'd like to think that if all palys were this toxic, it would be common knowledge to not do what I did. So I suspect it's just a roll of the dice with paly toxicity, and it was not my lucky day.


Also BIG update to my OP regarding what was, and was not killed by my toxic paly event.

I did a vigorous essay of my tanks inhabitants, and made the MISTAKE of assuming that any change I had not previously noticed was due to the paly toxin. That assumption appears to be wrong. Now some things were very obvious, like the death of corals. No mistaking that. But others were less obvious. Specifically my sea stars.

My serpent star hides, and is rarely seen. So when I saw it's pitiful stumps of arms after the event, I assumed a causal relationship. Bad assumption. I've got (until a few hours ago) a Coral Beauty that I acquired a couple of months ago. I've not seen it nip any corals or my clam. But last week I saw it aggressively nip the raw tip of one of the sea star's tentacles. Clearly the d*mn think was eating starfish legs! Now, it may have been nibbling on a raw wound caused by the toxic event. But more likely - it was eating the poor thing's legs. I rarely see it, so I've got no way of knowing.

Which brings me to my mini brittle stars, all of which appear to be gone. So maybe the Coral Beauty decimated that population too. They really come out primarily at night, so its been weeks since I would have observed any. Again, I can't say for certain that the paly toxin did them in. I suspect it was the Coral Beauty - which BTW - now has a new home.

Watch out for nasty palys!

Happy Reefing.

 

[Gangous]

I've cut zoas/paly and just put right back in tank r u sure that's what wiped ur tank out also have a reefing buddy that uses a toothbrush to brush away zoas when they grow where he doesn't want them

 

[Jeremy Blaze]

Thanks for sharing, sorry for your losses. Can;t wait to see the replacement tough!

 

[scolley]

... r u sure that's what wiped ur tank...

Causality is difficult to establish outside of a rigorous, experiment/control setting. So I cannot say for sure. But here's what I can say...

1. I've fragged plenty of zoas, and some palys too, but I don't believe that just because it's safe sometimes, that it's safe every time.
2. Zoas aren't palys. Palys are known to be generally more toxic
3. Some palys are believed more toxic than others
4. My tank has been UBER stable. Happy to give you the details, but it is automated and stable in the extreme. Even down to tiny automated water changes every day
5. The two pictures in my OP were barely 24 hours apart. When the lights went out, it looked like the 1st pic. When they came back on, it looked like the 2nd.
6. The ONLY thing that I did to the tank between those two times is the paly cleaning I described.
7. Of the corals where only SOME of them died, like my acans, the higher they were in the water column, the more lethal the event was. My acans on the bottom are either fine or recovering well.
8. My Echotech MP10 is positioned to provide high flow high in the water column, and far less flow below. So the toxicity appears to have been flow related.
9. I saw the ooze coming off the rock when I put it back. That rock happens to be in the upper, higher flow regions of the tank.

Is all that proof? Not ironclad. But it's good enough for me. A quick Google of Occam's Razor will explain.

 

[scolley]

Thanks for sharing, sorry for your losses. Can;t wait to see the replacement tough!

Thanks! This really does give me a chance to punch the "reset" button. Which I would have never had the heart to do otherwise.

It will be fun!

 

[papagimp]

So I suspect it's just a roll of the dice with paly toxicity, and it was not my lucky day.

this has always been my impression of this particular issue and so many aspects of this hobby can be veiwed as a random roll of the die. So sorry to hear about all this and look forward to seeing more pictures of this beautiful tank.

 

[tyler91913]

Steve--I was just skimming through the newbie forums and saw this post. First of all, I'm very sorry for your losses! Second, this is almost like divine intervention, since I've been contemplating an attack on a colony of brown polyps 120 strong. They're palys or buttons (is there a difference?), and taking up prime real estate. As you know, I've recently acquired my setup from somebody who was a little laissez faire about it, and one of the jobs on my to-do list was to nix some of these weeds. Well, it looks like I'll just be getting rid of the whole rock, rather than try to scrape them off, which was my original plan. I wasn't even worried about trying the scraping method, since I'm sure I've seen it recommended. Man, I'm glad I stumbled across this first. But at the same time, I'm very sorry for your loss. Hopefully see you next weekend at the meeting, Tyler

 

[scolley]

Tyler - at the risk of being overly philosophical about this...

First - Thanks for your kind post.

Second - Pay it forward. And I'm not talking about pedantic posting of every time you get a spot of nuisance algae. I'm talking about honest (if humbling) posts of significant events in your tank that appear to be out of the ordinary.

Ultimately we'll have to leave it to the community to decide if our conclusions are correct. But by posting (with accurate and honest documentation) we'll have served the community that supports us by contributing our own key observations.

Good luck with your palys! Hope to meet with you soon!

PS - Glad to see you were cruising here... GREAT place to learn. And there is OH SO MUCH to learn.

 

[fishinchick]

I had a similar experience. I rinsed the rock really really well though. It still affected the tank a little. The bad part was that the palytoxin got into a cut on my thumb and almost killed me.

You guys don't realize it but there's a LOT of corals and fish that can kill you. Especially if you have an allergic reaction.

You should have a notebook with all of the latin names of the animals (and common) written in it. The toxic or venemous animals should have a red star or identifying mark next to them to tip off people of what you might be exposed to if you are found on the ground gasping for air next to your tank. Your family/roomie/sig. other/friends should know to grab that book and take you to the ER and explain you have toxic/venemous animals and let the medical staff go from there.

If it wasn't for my best friend and the guys in mIRC Reef chat talking to her and giving her links to symptoms for Palytoxin poisoning, I seriously doubt I would be here to tell you this. Even the doctor (who owned a reef tank) said I was moments away from not having to worry about water parameters anymore. :|

Don't be stupid like me. Wear gloves, keep a list, and be CAREFUL! This is a serious thing!

 

[unkel j]

You should have a notebook with all of the latin names of the animals (and common) written in it. The toxic or venemous animals should have a red star or identifying mark next to them to tip off people of what you might be exposed to if you are found on the ground gasping for air next to your tank. Your family/roomie/sig. other/friends should know to grab that book and take you to the ER and explain you have toxic/venemous animals and let the medical staff go from there.

QUOTE]

That is a good idea. I am going to do that. Plus, I get lazy and don't wear gloves. I need to work on that too. I had green ones growing across muiltiple rocks and I ripped a few in the tank on accident. Nothing happend to me but my frogspawn wouldn't open for a few days.

I am wondering if kenya tree can hurt your tank too by scraping it off of rocks?

 

[fishinchick]

Well it is good that you are ok!!


It won't quite work the same with kenya trees. The difference is the palytoxin.

Running carbon and doing a substantial water change or two will make a big difference in a situation like that.

If you scrape anything off rock, a toothbrush (that you'll never put in your mouth EVER again) and some saltwater (probably in a jug and you pour a little at a time to rinse the scraped area) will do the trick.

If in question, get rid of the rock or quarantine it seperate.

I'm bad about gloves. My husband won't let me have Zoas in the tank at all. HOWEVER I work up the road from World Wide Corals and I plan to drop in soon and get some on my own

 

[MentalNote]

Really sorry to hear about your tank Scolley. I would have never considered the repercussions of paly toxins had you not posted it.

I've been unwittingly stalking you for the past few years, ever since you were on a certain planted tank forum. I've even copied your use of the Tunze ATO to automate water changes. And your assurance that B-Ionic Saltwater mix has low salinity brought me peace of mind.

I have always found your research very thorough. Good luck with the rescape!

 

[sponger0]

Dman bro....that hurts Im sure. And unfortunately, a lesson learned. But at least you are looking at the bright side and you can rebuild and start over.