Tank Die Off! Help!

2a373

New member
It started yesterday. My wife called to tell me the fish food had tipped over into the tank (4-6oz). Since I had planned a long over due vacuuming of my tank I decided to add a good water change when I got home for work.

When I got home the bubble tip anemone looked stressed (he ended up wearing most of the food initially) and my clown trigger was tucking himself into the rocks like when he sleeps but everything else appeared normal. I vacuumed the gravel bed (very dirty) and added back about 20 Gal of water (55G tank) about half RO, half filtered water from the local grocery store I declorinated as a precaution.

The water appeared cloudy as I turned the pumps back on and the salt level was low. I added salt a little at a time and measured it. By bedtime the salinity was back up to 20-22. There were signs of stress with the corals which I attributed to the water change. I figured the cloudiness would subside over night.

Got up this morning and all the fish were dead. The corals (all softs) appeared highly stressed. I immediately moved everything I could to my 120G. (was in the process of upgrading to it). I salvaged a handful of my corals, the anemone, my crabs and starfish. They are all still touch and go. I pulled my live rock but did not move it to the new tank yet. (I'm worried about contaminating it too) It's under wet newspaper.

I consider myself relatively new at this. My questions:

Could the food itself cause the die off by affecting the chemical balance?

Any ideas what else may have caused it? Stirred up ammonia or phosphate? I have the water and am going to get it tested.

My new tank appears from my testing to be balanced except PH (I did not do it yet) and salinity. In spite of weekly fresh water replacements (5 Gals) the salinity is up around 38. Any way to bring it down short of water changes? Or maybe my manual gauge is off. I have sacrificial fish and snails that have been doing ok and some of my saved livestock responded positively.

Can I add back my live rock or should I rinse it before putting it in the new tank?

I was going to use the gravel bed from the old tank in my sump as a filter bed. Can I and how do I handle it in light of the die off? Do I let it dry out? Do I rinse it and reuse it?

The greatest loss for me was my mated pair of Precula clowns and possibly their anemone if it doesn’t make and my wife’s enthusiasm. She gave me my tank for one Christmas present and had it set up as another Christmas present. She’s been almost excited as me at each turn or new addition. The die off has upset her and now she’s wondering how we are going to manage to replace the livestock or if we should even try. I told her we can nickel and dime and look for deals like we have been doing. I’m not sure that cheered her up much.

I’m not home right now but my wife is. I’m waiting to hear from Matt Donaldson. He helped me set up the new tank. I voice mailed him this morning hoping he could stop by and help. If any one else can help or has a suggestion please drop my a line.

Kevin
412-7836
 
Re: Tank Die Off! Help!

Kevin,

I just tried calling you, but got kicked into voice mail.

From your email, it sounded like you pulled out 20 gallon of saltwater from your tank and added in 20 gallon of fresh water. If that's what you did, you essential drop your salinity by 36%. That's a huge drop in salinity, and it can really stress your fish out and kill them. Did you also make sure the new water is about the same temperature as your old water? The temperature shock can also stress the fish.

Second - it sounded like you then added salt back in directly into the tank. Never add salt directly into the tank.

What you should have done was mixed the saltwater in a separate container. Heat up the new saltwater to about the same temperature as your old saltwater. Ideally - you would let the water mix (aerate) for 24 hours. However, in emergency, I have let water mix for as short as a few hours. Then add the new saltwater to the tank.

Please see below for more answers to your questions:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11722368#post11722368 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 2a373

Could the food itself cause the die off by affecting the chemical balance? I highly doubt it. Everything happened too fast. It would have eventually cause a problem if you didn't clean it out, but I don't think this would have been the immediate cause.

Any ideas what else may have caused it? Stirred up ammonia or phosphate? I have the water and am going to get it tested. It's possible that you stirred up the gravel bed which would have caused the water to be polluted. It's similar to people who disturb a deep sandbed. BTW - I am going bare bottom (no gravel or sand) on my new tank because I hate all the fish poop that collects on the sandbed.

My new tank appears from my testing to be balanced except PH (I did not do it yet) and salinity. In spite of weekly fresh water replacements (5 Gals) the salinity is up around 38. Any way to bring it down short of water changes? Or maybe my manual gauge is off. I have sacrificial fish and snails that have been doing ok and some of my saved livestock responded positively. I assume when you say a "manual gauge" you are referring to a hydrometer. I would strong recommend you get a refractometer. To bring your salinity down, slowly replace some of the salt water in your tank with fresh water. You don't want to do it too fast. Ideal salinity is 1.024-1.026 specific gravity . When you said "38" are you referring to 1.038 or 38ppt.

Can I add back my live rock or should I rinse it before putting it in the new tank? Your live rock should be fine. Just swish it in a bucket of saltwater to get off any of the junk on it.

I was going to use the gravel bed from the old tank in my sump as a filter bed. Can I and how do I handle it in light of the die off? Do I let it dry out? Do I rinse it and reuse it? Ditch the gravel bed. Gravel bed are detritus traps. Either use a real sandbed or no sand. If you insist on reusing it, rinse it out with saltwater. Don't dry it out, because you will kill any bacteria on it and possibly cause another cycle.

The greatest loss for me was my mated pair of Precula clowns and possibly their anemone if it doesn’t make and my wife’s enthusiasm. She gave me my tank for one Christmas present and had it set up as another Christmas present. She’s been almost excited as me at each turn or new addition. The die off has upset her and now she’s wondering how we are going to manage to replace the livestock or if we should even try. I told her we can nickel and dime and look for deals like we have been doing. I’m not sure that cheered her up much. All I can say is that we have all be there. You're still in the learning stage, but one you get a few basics down, it's not too bad. I am low on live stocks and corals right now since I am in the process of setting up my 120G. However, if you want some corals, I'd more than happy to share what little I do have. I do have a really nice frogspaw, some zoas, orange monti cap that I can frag for you. I would offer you my clowns - but my wife would kill me. :D


Last - on your 120G, you might want to consider an auto topoff. It's the greatest device for your tank. :D Steve (Funman1) is doing a DIY workshop on an auto-topoff system. You might want to join in.

I’m not home right now but my wife is. I’m waiting to hear from Matt Donaldson. He helped me set up the new tank. I voice mailed him this morning hoping he could stop by and help. If any one else can help or has a suggestion please drop my a line. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me. I am on the computer all day.
 
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The saying, "anything that happens quickly in a saltwater tank is bad" seems to hold true.

I think the quick answer is that you tried to do too much, too quickly based upon your concern re: the food pollution. Minh is right on the money with the way your mixed and added water/salt being a prime culprit.

I would also suggest that sand vacuuming needs to be done in very small sections over weeks, rather than half or all of the tank at a time. Every time I disturb a sand bed I regret it, so I've stopped vacuuming entirely and let my cleanup crew do the work. The slow and methodical pace of sand sifting stars, and snails doesn't release a cloud of "crap" into the water column.

I think we need to get a local reefer out to your place to help with some "rules" and guidance on maintaining a tank. I would be more than happy to come out this weekend if you're around and someone closer can't make it sooner.
 
I think Pete and Minh covered it well.

Good luck Kevin. Keep learning and don't let this drag you down. I have seen some dark days reefing, but many many better days.
 
Please do not let this incident dissuade you from reefkeeping. I think all of us here have endured serious setbacks inviolved in our first tanks.

Couple of quick observations.

Your tank is way too new to have any built up detrius to have been a problem for your fish. If anything, I think you are still in the middle of your tank cycling. It can take six months to a year before real stability is reached.

Food takes a few days to break down and pollute a tank. Not the reason for your die off either.

I hope the anem in your tank was not recommended by any "experts" out there. I love them and have several, but they are notoriously difficult to keep alive and need well established tanks with expert care to live for very long. Get it out if it starts melting (you will know what I mean).

Major water changes done improperly can easily kill your fish. Like Minh said, salinity has to be the same, temperature has to be the same and pH has to be the same. Any of those can kill your fish. (And never mix stuff in your tank. Crystals can land on your corals or anem and will chemically burn them).

Your heart was in the right place, you just made a common error. (Wait untill you get into SPS and they start RTN (reefgeek for die slowly) for no good reason.)

Have you purchased any sort of reefkeeping books yet?

If not, may I suggest the Concientious Marine Aquarist by Bob Fenner. It is about 30-40 bucks, but is the best book out there and worth its weight in gold.

There is a steep learning curve involved in reefkeeping. Never listen to anyone who tells you everything is okay or the sky is falling. There is much misinformation out there. And supposed experts who have just recite what real experts say. You must assume responsibility for your own tank. Reefcentral here is a good place to come with questions.

What am I saying? Run now while you can! Its got me, but you can escape! Reefkeeping wastes all my money! Run, Run, run, run........
 
All,

Well it looks like I created the Perfect Storm in my attempt to do right by my tank. O Street just tested my water for me.

Ammonia was through the roof, nitrates and nitro(?) (could understand him?!) was high and my ph was near 0. So whatever I did, I did a good job of it! The owner light-heartedly commented that he had never seen more colorful test results.

Thanks to everyone for your advise and encouragement and to Minh and Ed for offering to help with livestock. I would like to take you both up on it after the dust settles.

My first priority is to get everything moved into my 120G and settled down and to get the salinity fixed. I finally got ahold of Matt and he's going to swing by tonight and give me a hand. My canopy that I ordered from CA is still in work so until it's finished I'm relying on my 48 in CF (4x55w) and two other 12 in 55w CFs for light.

I definitely am going to need some more help trying to get this to be self sustaining. I ordered some cleaning crew from Pete's group buy (No more vacuuming!!).Pete, I would love to talk to you and get a different view on things some time soon. I would like to get in on the DIY thread for the auto topoff. Minh, where do I check that out? I set up a refugium but need to get it restarted and viable. (lost it orginally to our power outage storm). Again, Any help and suggestions would be appreciated

Thanks

Kevin
 
I seriously doubt that your pH was close to zero. pH 0 is close to the acid of a car battery. It's more likely than not that the method use to test your pH is not very precise. The only way to precisely meaure your pH is to use a pH meter.

pHscale.jpg


Just a very brief description of what is going on. It appears that your rock may not have been fully cured. When food breaks down, it produces ammonia. The ammonia is broken down by bacteria to Nitrite. Nitrite is very toxic to fish. Nitrite is then coverted to Nitrate by a different bacteria. Nitrate is toxic to fish in high concentration, but not as toxic as Nitrite.

So the cycle basically goes ammonia --> nitrite --> nitrate . In a mature tank, the ammonia and the nitrite usually read zero, where as the nitrate can vary greatly (zero to 10 is good, 10-20 is ok, 20-40 not great, 40+ very bad ). Fish can usually tolerate higher nitrate level than corals. Anyway - during your cycling process (curing the rocks) - you don't want any livestocks because it is stressful to them. Once your cycle is done, then you can add fish and corals. However, add fish slowly - don't add in a bunch of fish at once. Also - during the cycle process, you will need to test your water for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Purchase a cheap test kit to test these water condition. Personally, I would use the cheaper Aquarium Pharmaceuticals brand to test these three items. In these tests, you are testing for rough numbers, so precise numbers aren't important. And it's easy enough to read zero on these tests.

When you start testing for other stuff (such as Calcium, magnesium, alk), then you will want to use nice test kits such as Elos or Salifert. For pH, the only reliable test is a pH meter.

Here's an article that explains the cycling process:

http://www.ltbenvironmentalproject.com/uploadedImages/6-_FAQs/pHscale.jpg

BTW - feel free to ask any questions here. But you may also want to just browser the "New to the Hobby" forum. You will find a lot of great beginners questions and answers there.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=104


Minh
 
Minh- I have to personally commend you on the responses and time you took to detail all of Kevin's questions! WTG!

Kevin - Feel free to ask questions as much as you like in the MARS forum too. As you can see, it's a great bunch of reefers/friends/consutants/Etc. that all just want to keep the hobby and it's inhabitants alive!

:D :D
 
I don't want you to get discouraged by Aaron's statement. While Aaron is right that it may take six months to a year for real stability, it does not mean that it will take six months to a year before you can add live stocks. During the first six months, you may deal with some minor issues (such as slime algae) as the tank stabilizes.

With the live rocks that I have purchased, it has typically taken me 1-2 months for the rock to cure. But once your rock is cured, you can slowly start adding fish and corals. Start of with some hardy fish (clown) and corals (softies) before you go with some of the more sensative fish/corals (anenome). Oh - don't forget the cleaning crew (snails, shrimps, crabs, etc) right after the rocks are done cycling.



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11723243#post11723243 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by airinhere
Your tank is way too new to have any built up detrius to have been a problem for your fish. If anything, I think you are still in the middle of your tank cycling. It can take six months to a year before real stability is reached.
 
Thanks Jeff. I was there not too long ago, and I received a lot of helpful advices from people in the club. I'm just giving back what I have received.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11726952#post11726952 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jeffmperez
Minh- I have to personally commend you on the responses and time you took to detail all of Kevin's questions! WTG!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11727181#post11727181 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefugee
With the live rocks that I have purchased, it has typically taken me 1-2 months for the rock to cure. But once your rock is cured, you can slowly start adding fish and corals. Start of with some hardy fish (clown) and corals (softies) before you go with some of the more sensative fish/corals (anenome). Oh - don't forget the cleaning crew (snails, shrimps, crabs, etc) right after the rocks are done cycling.

And don't forget, that if you're cycling your tank, and you already have livestock (not ideal), then plan on 10-20% water changes every 2-3 days.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11727199#post11727199 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefugee
Thanks Jeff. I was there not too long ago, and I received a lot of helpful advices from people in the club. I'm just giving back what I have received.

I trhink it is time to change your "Hobby Expierence"!:lol:
 
I can't give up my mated pair of Maroon clowns but I have one I can send your way...It's a start. I can probalbly pull one of my anenomes out as well. Let me know when your ready.
 
Minh, thanks for the PH chart and the lesson on nitrates. I can see why it was hard to differentiate between nitrates and nitrite when it was spoken with an accent. The color has a dull green so I guess that put the PH at around 5 or 6. If I remember my chemistry, that can be interpreted as 0, not acid but, not alkaline (?).

When it comes to my live rock what I had from my old tank was mostly from a member I bought from last fall (Can see his face, can’t remember the name?) I had gotten some rock with the tank that had been used previously and dried out. It had started sprouting some coralline algae but is still pretty white. Do I still need to consider it “curing” and adjust accordingly? The new tank had been up and "curing" for about a 7 weeks when this happened.

Wpnorton, Thanks for the offer and I would like to take you up on it once the dust settles and I get my canopy and lighting.

Does any one know where and what I can get for my refugium. I have some Chato and I had tried some Copopods but, they died off, I think, during our big storm when I lost power. Anything else? Anybody know some good sources/prices?
 
I've got Cheato to spare. I through a wad in the garbage a couple weeks ago! Mine has a thriving bug community in it, so you should be good. Just let it grow.
 
Many local stores will buy your cheato off you for store credit.
Since the local club seems to be very well stocked on the stuff (I can't seem to give it away anymore)
I started taking mine to the LFS and they are more than happy to trade for Store Credit.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11742419#post11742419 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sheldon337
who pays for chaeto?

A lot of people aren't able to get it I guess, in other states.
 
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