tank over 4 years - tear it down

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rshimek said:


Yes, there would. These transient events don't flush anything out of the system. They simply allow what is there to become soluble and toxic. As soon as the pH shifts back the material re-precipitate and are ready for the next time. And each subsequent time, the "burps" would be worse as there would be more accumulation of materials.

If water changes are done while the toxic metals are re-introduced to the water column then some at least will be removed and not allowed to re-precipitate. If this was somehow done on a controlled basis, and not dependent on the random water chemistry fluctuations, then that may possibly help in the long run.
 
Is it possible to take newly mixed saltwater and precipitate out the toxic metals?

If yes, then use this toxic metal depleted water for water changes?

Seems this would drastically reduce the amount of toxic metals in the water and hopefully allow enough usable trace elements to be beneficial. Benefit being able to lengthen the time it takes to accumulate toxic levels.

just me rambling about things I know nothing about.

Dwayne
 
Thanks for stepping in to clear that up, Dr. Ron! :)

I did read the article in Reefkeeping, forgive me for not catching that detail. I am not attacking you or your hypothesis, don't get offended. Obviously, I defer to your experience and research.

But it is somewhat discouraging. It's quite a massive undertaking- physically and financially- to do that kind of re-establishment. I'm afraid that if your hypothesis solidifies into a theory, we will see a move away from deep sand bed methodology.

Maybe the time has come for advancement in mechanical filtration. Is there any way to bind those metals and remove them?
 
Hi,

As I stated in this month's [rk] article, I think the best thing we can do now is to use filters such as Polyfilters and GAC to remove as much of the these trace elements from the water as possible when we make it up. I have been discussing this with the manufacturers of the Polyfilter, and it is possible to lower the trace metal concentrations below toxic levels in this manner.

For those of us with older tanks, I suspect it is time to "start over." This means to break down the tank, get rid of the contaminated live rock and sand, and rebuild anew. Then use only - ONLY - filtered water until such time as a good salt mix becomes available (and that may only be a month or so off, - I have also been talking to a salt manufacturer who has a product that may fill the bill).

Remember - the accumulation of these materials is not just in the sand as precipitates, the accumulation as adsorbed matierials will also be in/on the live rock, and on EVERY surface in the aquarium, including inside the plumbing, etc.

Now, lest you think that this is all an "academic" exercise for me, and that I am simply pontificating about an unexperienced theory. Here is some background. My lagoonal reef is now 7.5 years old. It worked well for about 4-5 years. Then I started to get "odd" random deaths, eventually one by one all my stony corals which had been growing well, died. No obvious causes were noted, I didn't change anything, in either my procedures or materials. Eliminating all other possibilities, I began to consider seriously the idea of toxic chemical accumulation in the system. That is when I started these projects (the Tank Water Project, The Tank Export Project (yet to be reported on, etc.). I found my tank (and other older tanks) to have high levels of these poisons - even though I never dosed any of them.

The toxicity of the water is not in question. Tests have been done showing that sea water with concentrations of copper, nickel, vanadium, zinc, etc., lower than what we have in our tanks kills some corals, snails, and other animals. We know from basic physiology that those animals that are not killed are stressed and prone to death from other factors.

We also know from basic chemistry that these trace metals adsorb onto surfaces and can predict pretty well what will happen to them if conditions change.

So... you may consider the idea of tank mortality due to toxic chemical build up as a theory. It isn't. I have collected the necessary data, and I have done the necessary tests to show that it is a proven fact. Over the next month or so, additionally I will be doing some direct sea-urchin larval bioassays on various of the salt mixes to put the last nails in that coffin.

So...

My lagoonal reef's days are numbered - to maybe about 10 days to go... I have some live rock curing and when it is cured, my old setup is history. I will break down the tank (saving what livestock I can), decontaminate it with a series of muriatic acid rinses, and re-establish it with a deep sand bed and new live rock.

And I will not ever use unfiltered or old salt again -ever. If I need to, I will make my own salt mix.

And I would advise you to do likewise.
 
Dr. Ron, question for you, if I may-

Let's take for example a tank that is one year old, lots of live rock, and a deep sand bed. Your recommendation to use GAC or Polyfilters makes sense. In said tank, is it possible to reduce these heavy metals to less than toxic levels (or maintain them at less than toxic levels) by using carbon or Polyfilters if they have not been employed thus far?

One more thing-
Do you think it would make an appreciable difference to REPLACE 1/4 or so of the LR/LS each year? Would that sufficiently reduce heavy metal precips and absorbed materials to keep levels at less than toxic?

Thanks for taking so much time to explain things. Again, I'm not trying to offend you, and forgive my misnomer of calling this a theory.

Thanks!
 
Originally posted by hiddendragonet

Hi,

In said tank, is it possible to reduce these heavy metals to less than toxic levels (or maintain them at less than toxic levels) by using carbon or Polyfilters if they have not been employed thus far?

I think so. I suspect if you hooked up a canister filter with P-Fand GAC on the tank, you could probably bring the trace metal loads down to acceptable levels. This, coupled with managing the replacment water chemistry, should significantly increase the health of the organisms in the tank. The only problem is that I don't know how long it would take to bring existing chemical imbalance under control. Might be able to do it pretty fast, methinks.

Do you think it would make an appreciable difference to REPLACE 1/4 or so of the LR/LS each year? Would that sufficiently reduce heavy metal precips and absorbed materials to keep levels at less than toxic?

No, I don't think that will work very well. The disturbance factor and the resultant mortality would likely be as nasty as the chemicals. I suspect managing the tank contents as described above would probably be the best way.

If you make your own salt mix, you should PATENT IT, and market it, because most of us will probably buy it!!

LOL :D. If I make up a salt mix, I will simply use one of the several recipes already floating around in the scientific community, and I will be glad to publish it so's anybody who wants can make it on their own.

:D
 
One tank or even many tanks do not make up universal truths--that is anecdotal evidence. It would be absurd if someone reported their experience as a universal fact.
 
Looks like it's time to hook up the old canister again, then. And here all along we thought we were doing the right thing adding all those trace elements in the salt! I was getting salty myself at the thought of having to start over every 4 years. :D

Thanks for chiming in!

HD
 
Originally posted by pcmankey

Hi,

One tank or even many tanks do not make up universal truths--that is anecdotal evidence. It would be absurd if someone reported their experience as a universal fact.

That's why all of my projects have multiple tanks and tests based on as many systems as I can.

None of these results are based on a single tank - however, they are applicable to a single tank, and when those single tanks test out toxic, as mine did, - and as I suspect every tank that has used standard salt mixes will - then the data are applicable.
 
Originally posted by hiddendragonet

Hi,

And here all along we thought we were doing the right thing adding all those trace elements in the salt!

Well, this type of addition has never made any real sense. It is largely driven by advertising hype and myth founded by people wanting to sell the products.

:D
 
For those of us that live close enough to the coast to use nsw - how far out should we go to avoid land run-off pollutants? Or, would it be sufficient just testing the water for phosphates and ammonia?

Also, you mentioned that there may be a new salt mix coming out that fits our needs - any hint on the brand and when?

Chris
 
Originally posted by chriss

Chris,

Could the buildup of toxicity be avoided by using natural sea water (for those of us that live close to the ocean)? Or would the risk of introducing harmful polutants from land run off be too great?

As I state in this month's article, the use of Natural Sea Water is the first choice.

In some areas (i. e. Seattle) filtered good sea water is available (from the Seattle Aquarium). Bottled sea water is available in the Southern California area from Catalina Sea Water.

So... check around you may find a source.

:D
 
Dr. Ron,
Thanks for the reply - I had edited my post after reading your article, but you responded before I had a chance to post the edit. :)

Since I live in NE Fl - what should I use to filter the water since I will be collecting it myself?

Thanks again,
Chris
 
Hi Chris,

Try to get off shore water (it is often less contaminated, and closer to full strength sea water). I would just filter it through a polyfilter (that will get out any of the more pronounced bad chemicals, and will also act as a mechanical filter for crud). You could do without the filtration if you wanted to get a good dose of healthy plankton. I think that is your call.

Good Luck!
 
Thanks for all of the info. How about the live rock that we purchase locally or mail order. Wouldn't that rock already be exposed to the same salts that we use?
 
Hi,

Yes, it may be, but the amount of material adsorbing is proportionate to the time spent in the medium, so if it hasn't been in the salt mix for long, there shouldn't be a lot on it. Uncured live rock should be fine all around.

:D
 
Dr. Ron,
Thanks for all the great info. Will go collect some tomorrow since I'll be in that area. Have to find a filter though. Do you know how long I can store fresh seawater? I am going to be using the 5 gal Crystal Springs water containers to hold it.
Chris
 
Hi Chris,

If kept in the dark in clean containers, filtered sea water should be good pretty much indefinitely. Aerate it vigorously prior to use, though.

:D
 
Hmmm. Sounds like the Kold Sterile filtration unit could become very popular as well. If I understand correctly it removes heavy metals from water.

Are there any useful things that such a filter would remove from tank water?

Fred.
 
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