tank over 4 years - tear it down
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yikan
New member
Dr Ron:
Thanks for the useful information.
After reading all this, it all makes sense to me why we have 2 camps of water change groups that all swear by their WC philosophy: One group does regular WC and the other doesn't.
The first group (do WC) argues that soon after they do a WC, the corals all perk up and they can see it. It makes sense because a big WC swaps out a big percentage of unwanted metals in the water column. However, doing regular WC is actually like slowly killing the reef by adding more toxin (from salt mix) to it. WC only *temperarily* gets rid of the metal in the water, but adds more to the LR and sand almost permanently. It sounds bad to me.
The other group (don't do WC) swears by their long term success. Now it is apparent to me why it is the case and it seems very likely...... just a thought
Thanks for the useful information.
After reading all this, it all makes sense to me why we have 2 camps of water change groups that all swear by their WC philosophy: One group does regular WC and the other doesn't.
The first group (do WC) argues that soon after they do a WC, the corals all perk up and they can see it. It makes sense because a big WC swaps out a big percentage of unwanted metals in the water column. However, doing regular WC is actually like slowly killing the reef by adding more toxin (from salt mix) to it. WC only *temperarily* gets rid of the metal in the water, but adds more to the LR and sand almost permanently. It sounds bad to me.
The other group (don't do WC) swears by their long term success. Now it is apparent to me why it is the case and it seems very likely...... just a thought
What would you suggest to do with the live rock we get rid of? Does trading in the LR to our LFS just pass the lethal trace elements to other unknowing hobbyists? (whether or not to trade it in is probably more of any ethical question than a scientific one.)
Would using homemade aquarium food introduce less metals into the aquarium? Does switching to NSW significantly dilute the amount of elements already in our system, or is this too little, too late? I have always used NSW, but I bought my current setup from someone else, and don't know a whole lot about its history.
Would using homemade aquarium food introduce less metals into the aquarium? Does switching to NSW significantly dilute the amount of elements already in our system, or is this too little, too late? I have always used NSW, but I bought my current setup from someone else, and don't know a whole lot about its history.
yikan
New member
Contender said:
So next time we walk in a LFS we will see 2 batches of LRs: one marked "safe" and the other marked "contaminated". Use with your own discretion.
Seriously though. I think by the time you worry about your LR, we will have the new synthetic salt free of heavy metals (or so we think!) available for us to pour $$ in. Or, there will be an even more powerful filter than Polyfilter to get rid of all those unwanted elements. So better not worry too much about this unless your tank is now 3 year and 11 month old.
Hi,
I think that live rock that is gotten rid of should be dumpstered.
Likewise with live sand.
It is rather unethical to pass the problem along to some poor victim downstream.
Yikan states:
The other group (don't do WC) swears by their long term success. Now it is apparent to me why it is the case and it seems very likely...... just a thought
This is a lose-lose situation. If you change water regularly you swap out some toxic metals and add back others. If you don't do regular changes, your system accumulates toxic metals from foods.
The only hope is to get some toxin-free salt mix, and as I have indicated we may only be a few weeks away from having some available.
Contender asks:
Would using homemade aquarium food introduce less metals into the aquarium?
No. Trace metals are concentrated by going up the food chain naturally, so there is no benefit in this regard to using homemade foods (although there may be other benefits).
Does switching to NSW significantly dilute the amount of elements already in our system, or is this too little, too late?
It certainly would dilute those in the water mass of the aquarium. For the materials precipitated in the sediments, it may over time dilute those out.
Additionally, I am in the process of developing a couple of bioassay tests that would assess the amount of "toxicity" in sediments and water. With some luck, I will have these tests ready to go within about 6 weeks. They would not be cheap, probably on the basis of $150 a pop, and would involve sending the samples to me and I would test them using a modified bioassay. (Using a modified EPA protocol). The test would basically tell you whether or not you needed - for example - to worry about toxic live sand, or water.
I think that live rock that is gotten rid of should be dumpstered.
Likewise with live sand.
It is rather unethical to pass the problem along to some poor victim downstream.
Yikan states:
The other group (don't do WC) swears by their long term success. Now it is apparent to me why it is the case and it seems very likely...... just a thought
This is a lose-lose situation. If you change water regularly you swap out some toxic metals and add back others. If you don't do regular changes, your system accumulates toxic metals from foods.
The only hope is to get some toxin-free salt mix, and as I have indicated we may only be a few weeks away from having some available.
Contender asks:
Would using homemade aquarium food introduce less metals into the aquarium?
No. Trace metals are concentrated by going up the food chain naturally, so there is no benefit in this regard to using homemade foods (although there may be other benefits).
Does switching to NSW significantly dilute the amount of elements already in our system, or is this too little, too late?
It certainly would dilute those in the water mass of the aquarium. For the materials precipitated in the sediments, it may over time dilute those out.
Additionally, I am in the process of developing a couple of bioassay tests that would assess the amount of "toxicity" in sediments and water. With some luck, I will have these tests ready to go within about 6 weeks. They would not be cheap, probably on the basis of $150 a pop, and would involve sending the samples to me and I would test them using a modified bioassay. (Using a modified EPA protocol). The test would basically tell you whether or not you needed - for example - to worry about toxic live sand, or water.
Hi,
Do you think the fact that many of us disolve aragonite media into out tanks via calcium reactors could be adding to the accumilation of metals?
I think any dissolved medium would be adding some trace elements, but how much and which ones.. ??? Unless the aragonite is contaminated from some source this shouldn't be an important source for most of the toxic group (copper, zinc, etc).
Most of these elements come from the salt and the food.
yikan
New member
rshimek said:
Thanks Dr Ron. I missed the part that the food also plays an equally important role here. It makes sense.
BTW, when you say you have some new salt mix coming in soon. Do you plan to start a series of experiments on the new product too? Maybe a controlled accelerated testing process is in order?
Thanks!
Hi,
There is some clarification in order. I don't have a new salt mix on the way. However, there are several salt mixes available that are marketed to folks other than aquarists. One of these mixes, in particular, is marketed for and used by laboratories testing for the effects of water pollution. As such, it has to be made to match as closely as possible natural sea water concentrations of trace elements and such.
I will be testing this salt in a series of toxicity tests I will be running soon (along with some other salts). I expect when mixed properly, it will be indistinguishable from natural sea water as far as the animals are concerned. If so, I will let folks now what it is, and where they can get it. It is likely to be more expensive than the salt we have hitherto used. On the other hand, if it saves us from breaking down tanks and gives us healthier animals....
I will be running the tests within the next three weeks or so, and will report on them at MACNA at the end of September - and possibily in a post in my forum before then.
There is some clarification in order. I don't have a new salt mix on the way. However, there are several salt mixes available that are marketed to folks other than aquarists. One of these mixes, in particular, is marketed for and used by laboratories testing for the effects of water pollution. As such, it has to be made to match as closely as possible natural sea water concentrations of trace elements and such.
I will be testing this salt in a series of toxicity tests I will be running soon (along with some other salts). I expect when mixed properly, it will be indistinguishable from natural sea water as far as the animals are concerned. If so, I will let folks now what it is, and where they can get it. It is likely to be more expensive than the salt we have hitherto used. On the other hand, if it saves us from breaking down tanks and gives us healthier animals....
I will be running the tests within the next three weeks or so, and will report on them at MACNA at the end of September - and possibily in a post in my forum before then.
Floridiot
Member
Ron,
For those of us who use Instant Ocean mix, what do you think about placing a poly filter or some GAC in our mixed water before we do water changes? Will this sufficiently remove the metals, or are we risking removing too much of the necessary stuff in the replacement water?
For those of us who use Instant Ocean mix, what do you think about placing a poly filter or some GAC in our mixed water before we do water changes? Will this sufficiently remove the metals, or are we risking removing too much of the necessary stuff in the replacement water?
Hi,
For those of us who use Instant Ocean mix, what do you think about placing a poly filter or some GAC in our mixed water before we do water changes? Will this sufficiently remove the metals, or are we risking removing too much of the necessary stuff in the replacement water?
Well, this is what I recommended in this month's article. Keep in mind that there is virtually NO necessary stuff in the salt mix except salt, calcium, and some alkalinity buffers. Effectively every thing else in the mix is a poison. So... get rid of as much of it as you can.
pnosko
New member
Dr. Ron, I just found this thread and sprinted through the article. I'll do some critical reading later, but wanted to ask about the Polyfilters/carbon. Are you taking about filtering mixed saltwater before adding it, or using these on the tank? Will the Polyfilter (I have no idea what these are yet) perform any negative mechanical filteration on DSB pods, or is it more an absorbing medium?
Hi Pete,
Are you taking about filtering mixed saltwater before adding it?
Yes
.. or using these on the tank?
This might be necessary, too.
Will the Polyfilter (I have no idea what these are yet) perform any negative mechanical filteration on DSB pods, or is it more an absorbing medium?
It is an absorbing medium, but it will also be mechanical filtration, so if we can use it only on the make up water we will be better off, with regard to critters and such.
I fall into the no water change fan club as I have two tanks, one is over 7 years old and one is about 5 months. Both are doing great and I guess your article has explained why I am enjoying success, as I don't feed the tanks anything. Guess I am in the category of win-win situation. Having said that, of course I have to carefully choose what fish and corals I keep that can thrive without feeding.
Hi,
Well, as neither corals nor fish can survive without feeding, you are feeding them whether you plan on it or not. Given the data I have seen from tanks as old or older than yours, I suspect the trace metal load has not risen as rapidly as in some tanks - but if the tank water were tested, I would bet a fair bit of real money that the tank's load of trace metals is pretty high.
Well, as neither corals nor fish can survive without feeding, you are feeding them whether you plan on it or not. Given the data I have seen from tanks as old or older than yours, I suspect the trace metal load has not risen as rapidly as in some tanks - but if the tank water were tested, I would bet a fair bit of real money that the tank's load of trace metals is pretty high.
Yellotang
Premium Member
I have a comment that I have no idea that it holds any real merit but not to long ago on discovery science channel, they had a short clip on using algae to remove toxic metals out of water. In fact I believe they made the comment that every metal in the world has an algae that will eat it except silver and gold. In this clip they showed the use of large mats growing algae on it much like the use of "ATS" that we use now in some systems.
Could this be something that may be considered? Or could this be a strictly freshwater application?
Could this be something that may be considered? Or could this be a strictly freshwater application?
I think you will lose the bet Dr Ron. When I said I don't feed the tank or do water changes I mean exactly that. As to how a fish or coral can survive without us feeding them directly, take a look at this thread which may give you some interesting insight into how my tanks manage to survive:
http://www.ultimatereef.net/cgi-bin/ibv3/ikonboard.cgi?s=3d557fb204acffff;act=ST;f=4;t=3548
I know your article mentions the words "in the average tank" a lot, and my tanks are probably very ununusal if not unique.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/cgi-bin/ibv3/ikonboard.cgi?s=3d557fb204acffff;act=ST;f=4;t=3548
I know your article mentions the words "in the average tank" a lot, and my tanks are probably very ununusal if not unique.
Yellotang
Premium Member
Just incase someone wants to know further what I'm talking about,
http://www.great-lakes.net/lists/glin-announce/2002-05/msg00032.html
http://www.fi.lt/E&cp/23_1/paper_2.htm though I don't know if its the bioaccumulation that causes this and isn't effective for us.
http://www.glrc.org/transcripts/2002/05/27/cohen.htm
http://www.eng.nus.edu.sg/EResnews/Nov97/nov97p11.html the use of algae to remove and reuse heavy metals from waste waters.
http://www.great-lakes.net/lists/glin-announce/2002-05/msg00032.html
http://www.fi.lt/E&cp/23_1/paper_2.htm though I don't know if its the bioaccumulation that causes this and isn't effective for us.
http://www.glrc.org/transcripts/2002/05/27/cohen.htm
http://www.eng.nus.edu.sg/EResnews/Nov97/nov97p11.html the use of algae to remove and reuse heavy metals from waste waters.
Hi,
I think you will lose the bet Dr Ron.
No, I won't. If you are not feeding, the animals are gaining tissue without food, that is simply impossible. Tissues require nitrogen for growth, and this has be gotten by feeding. Fishes can not absorb sufficient compounds of any sort to provide for even basic metabolism.
They are feeding whether or not you are feeding them.
Hi,
ICould this be something that may be considered? Or could this be a strictly freshwater application?
For years, I have suggesting that reef aquarists do just that. I just got the raw data for several types of aquarium algae, and some other export materials, and will be publishing those data in a month or two, as well as presenting them at MACNA.
The bottom line, however, appears to be .... this helps, but it is not sufficient to do it alone.
Algae remove a lot of organic nutrient, however....
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