TBS Hitchhiker/pest Question

[DDon]

Hey Richard
I think I have pretty much run the gammit with hitchhikers and pests. From the too numerous to count porcelain carbs which everyone enjoys watching , many pistol shrimp which I enjoy when I catch a glimpse of and believe it or not enjoy listening to early in the morning (had a visitor ask if something was wrong with the tank, thought it was cracking), red mithrax crabs which were fine for awhile but now have been observed munching on corals, stone and gorilla crabs most of the large ones were removed before rock went in but many small ones that I am still working on removing, mantis shrimp that I recently sighted, whelks which were easy enough to remove, polyclad flatworms, removed the 2 I saw and have found none since and last but not least, the pest I have questions about, cirolanid isopods.
I found 2 in the sump early on which were removed. Had 2 fish in the tank at the time, the royal grammar you included and a Bourbonnais Anthias which inexplicably and sadly passed. After finding the cirolanids I avoided adding any other fish but never was able to remove the royal gramma. I waited about 6 weeks while observing at night and setting trap using the "stinky water" method. I only caught or ever saw one additional cirolanid in the tank and after some time started to add my other fish. Well last night lol and behold I see more cirolanids. I was able to catch 2 with a turkey baste but there were atleast 3 others I couldn't catch. I will go back to trapping and routinely hunting them but short of removing the fish and running fallow for months is there any way to truly rid the tank of these? Also how destructive is this particular species of cirolanid that is found in the gulf? I assume it is the predatory variety though I have yet to observe any on the fish. Any input you could provide would be appreciated.

By the way, I'm not knocking the rock whatsoever, love the diversity and will use again in the future.
Dale

 

[liverock]

I have a queen angel that I have has since it was legal size, two inch...she swims from vat to vat....in my holding system for the live rock. Have never seen a pod on her when I switch on the lights in the morning....she is now over three years old and about ten inches.

I have had reports from folks that they have seen one on their fish. Let the tank be hungry....and use methods you are employing now, and you will prevail.

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

 

[DDon]

Thanks Richard

 

[liverock]

Thanks Richard

Another method is to use a molly.....as bait...they are slow swimmers....and if you have a pod...they will look at him first...and they are easy to net out that way.....

 

[DDon]

Another method is to use a molly.....as bait...they are slow swimmers....and if you have a pod...they will look at him first...and they are easy to net out that way.....

Might have to give that a try as well. Any recommendations for how many mollies in a 270g to be effective?

 

[liverock]

Might have to give that a try as well. Any recommendations for how many mollies in a 270g to be effective?

Just one...if you have a pod...it will find him....

 

[figuerres]

Might have to give that a try as well. Any recommendations for how many mollies in a 270g to be effective?

DDon there are many kinds of isopds in the gulf, several look nasty but only a few are prefatory, most of them are scavengers and detrivores. In several years of having tanks with TBS rock I only had one time I got a bad bunch.

If your not seeing them on fish then it's almost for sure you do not have the bad ones.
Put in a couple of moll and watch... if they can't feed they will die and if they can't latch on a moll then I bet they are detrivores that will just help clean the tank.

 

[DDon]

DDon there are many kinds of isopds in the gulf, several look nasty but only a few are prefatory, most of them are scavengers and detrivores. In several years of having tanks with TBS rock I only had one time I got a bad bunch.

If your not seeing them on fish then it's almost for sure you do not have the bad ones.
Put in a couple of moll and watch... if they can't feed they will die and if they can't latch on a moll then I bet they are detrivores that will just help clean the tank.

Thanks for the input. I have no experience with cirolanids prior to this so only info I have is what I have been able to learn through my research. Any distinguishing features between the different types? I am positive they are cirolanids but thought I read there were different sub-species of cirolanids as well. Will post a pic once I get home from work.
Dale

 

[figuerres]

Thanks for the input. I have no experience with cirolanids prior to this so only info I have is what I have been able to learn through my research. Any distinguishing features between the different types? I am positive they are cirolanids but thought I read there were different sub-species of cirolanids as well. Will post a pic once I get home from work.
Dale

I do not have a good source for detailed id, I think the main thing is do they go after live fish. Some info you can get is this set of books
http://www.amazon.com/Reef-Set-Crea...cation+florida+caribbean+bahamas+3+volume+set
Covers all kinds of critters, fish, corals , shrimp, crabs etc.

Isopods are related to insects and correct id means magnifying glasses and counting segments of legs and shell.

This article is a good one by Ron Shimek
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-05/rs/

 

[DDon]

I do not have a good source for detailed id, I think the main thing is do they go after live fish. Some info you can get is this set of books
http://www.amazon.com/Reef-Set-Crea...cation+florida+caribbean+bahamas+3+volume+set
Covers all kinds of critters, fish, corals , shrimp, crabs etc.

Isopods are related to insects and correct id means magnifying glasses and counting segments of legs and shell.

This article is a good one by Ron Shimek
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-05/rs/

I have been through the Ron Shimek article in my research but not the other so thanks for the links. Thanks for your input. I am going to try the molly as soon as I can get to the LFS.

Here's a picture (not the best quality though) for reference.

 

[figuerres]

Looks to me like a sphaeromatid, which are scavengers look at rons article at the shapes of the body and the head, other things are to see if they can roll up to a pill shape, and if you have a magnifier look at the rear end.
If you have a camera that takes SLR lenses get a macro lens and take close up pictures with that macro is for close up pictures and is also good for crazy good pictures of coral polyps and other small stuff.

Take a look at an old thread I made http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1458913&page=2
Compare the second set to yours? in your photo the head looks square like and the body looks rectangle shaped, my bad bugs were more oval-lanceolate

The eyes can fool you, what the body shape ?
Also the bad ones tend to be larger than the scavengers.

Hope that helps.

 

[DDon]

I had checked when I originally caught the first 2 and they do not roll into a ball like a pill bug. That was one of the tests I used to help determine it was a cirolanid. If/when I catch others I will get a better pic. I shoot a 5DMkIII but unfortunately do not have a macro lens yet but should be able to get a pretty detailed pic.
Thanks again for the help.

 

[figuerres]

I had checked when I originally caught the first 2 and they do not roll into a ball like a pill bug. That was one of the tests I used to help determine it was a cirolanid. If/when I catch others I will get a better pic. I shoot a 5DMkIII but unfortunately do not have a macro lens yet but should be able to get a pretty detailed pic.
Thanks again for the help.

Cool, get a macro I used to have cheap camera with a ghetto clip on macro and got details that amazed folks. Identifying can be hard, catching them can be hard, just take time and in the end it will happen if they can't feed they will die in time. How long is another good question, some of the data that says a month is based on the big ones, but in tanks we deal more with small ones.
I have a hard time picturing a small one being able to live any more than a month without food.

 

[adamwheel]

I had the parasitic variety and posted in this forum last year. I was successful in removing them and couldn't be happier now.
I did post some pictures in this thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2511063

Steps that helped me:
1. Positive ID (found an article with drawing of different varieties and mine were on fish in early morning hours)
2. Fallow for 3 months
3. Stinky water traps (especially near the end)
4. Mesh nets to catch at night with red light (most were caught this way). 3:00 a.m. was my nightly routine.

Good luck,

Adam

 

[JakeK]

I bought TBS rock back in December 2015. I removed the biggest gorilla crab back in December but there is a massive stone crab lurking in a network of caves under all my live rock. Ive seen the crab rip off mushrooms and eat Zoas and palys, so far about $150 worth. My exquisite firefish came out of the rocks one morning with a huge vertical gash on its side. It died the same day. $40 gone there. Next my terminal male linespot flasher wrasse showed up with a huge chunk missing out of his tail and body. He's dead now too. That's another $70 gone. I'm going to have to tear down the live rock in the tank since traps have not worked in the 3 months I've been trying to catch it. It is enormous. Carapace is about 1.5 inches by my estimates and with its claws, close to 2 inches in total length. $260 worth of livestock dead and gone which is more than half the price I payed for the rock. Unfortunately I cannot recommend TBS. All the benefits of the rock, and there are many are shadowed by the destruction this one crab has created.

 

[figuerres]

I bought TBS rock back in December 2015. I removed the biggest gorilla crab back in December but there is a massive stone crab lurking in a network of caves under all my live rock. Ive seen the crab rip off mushrooms and eat Zoas and palys, so far about $150 worth. My exquisite firefish came out of the rocks one morning with a huge vertical gash on its side. It died the same day. $40 gone there. Next my terminal male linespot flasher wrasse showed up with a huge chunk missing out of his tail and body. He's dead now too. That's another $70 gone. I'm going to have to tear down the live rock in the tank since traps have not worked in the 3 months I've been trying to catch it. It is enormous. Carapace is about 1.5 inches by my estimates and with its claws, close to 2 inches in total length. $260 worth of livestock dead and gone which is more than half the price I payed for the rock. Unfortunately I cannot recommend TBS. All the benefits of the rock, and there are many are shadowed by the destruction this one crab has created.

sorry to hear of the rough time you have had.
the crabs are something that I think is well known to watch out for as you setup a tank.
while we have really good cycle times I think we all need to be careful not to add more stock to soon to a tank and this is one good example of why it's
best to take some time after the first cycle and make sure we get the big bad stuff before we add a lot of corals and fish.

 

[JakeK]

sorry to hear of the rough time you have had.
the crabs are something that I think is well known to watch out for as you setup a tank.
while we have really good cycle times I think we all need to be careful not to add more stock to soon to a tank and this is one good example of why it's
best to take some time after the first cycle and make sure we get the big bad stuff before we add a lot of corals and fish.

Tank was set up in December. It's May now. Nearly 5 full months have passed since set up. The quick cycle is a positive to ordering from TBS, but if you are suggesting waiting multiple months before adding coral and fish after the tank has cycled so you can catch all the potentially dangerous hitchhikers, then there is zero benefit from using TBS unless you actually want stone, gorilla crabs, and mantis shrimp, and in some cases parasitic isopods which most people don't want especially when they can be so destructive. I've learned my lesson and I'm paying a hefty price for it.

 

[d2mini]

I pulled this stone crab out of my 200g over a year later.
Didn't take too long once I knew he was in there.
Richard might remember me sending some crappy pics asking what the heck it was (when i first caught a glimpse) cause it was huge. Don't let the rocks fool ya, his body was a good 2" across.
But d2mini and his 24" long forceps (and some patience) prevailed!
Here he is walking the green mile. in my flower beds.

I've pulled out all kinds of crabs and mantis from my TBS tanks.
Not a big deal... just another story to tell!
And keeps things interesting.

 

[JakeK]

The crab is out. Had to tear down the rock on the left side of the tank but it is out. Here's a picture of its crushing claw.

 

[JakeK]

The whole crab with a quarter for scale.