the future of skimming ?

[OCEAN SIZE]

We're not at the end of understanding straightforward new ways to improve this hobby.

I've been on a reefkeeping break, more or less, for 5 years... and a fair amount has changed or improved.

That said, what do you make of the potential of this ?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080529/sc_nm/bubbles_dc

I'm especially interested in calling this to the attention of Hahnmeister, Spazz, Luke, Klaus, and the skimmer minded...

 

[xJake]

I may be wrong, but I don't see how this relates to skimming except for the fact that it has to do with bubbles. The study is essentially talking about the addition of a simple syrup to maintain the bubbles within the test media for extended periods of time. Unless you think adding simple syrup (water supersaturated with sugar) to our reef aquariums will help skimming in some way then I don't see this article having any relevance to reefkeeping.
As for improvements with skimmers, several major advances have become mainstream within the past few years. These advances include but are not limited to threadwheel pumps, cone-shaped skimmers, bubble plates (designed to reduce turbulence within the main body of the skimmer) as well as the use of low wattage pumps with large volutes to inject as much air as possible into the skimmer body. Finally with high capacity air injection becoming mainstream, the trend on most skimmers nowadays is to have larger and larger skimmer necks (sometimes only a couple inches short of the main body's diameter). You can find many threads on any of these subjects simply by searching google for "www.reefcentral.com: *insert topic*". Good to see that you've joined back up with the hobby and good luck with your future projects.

 

[OCEAN SIZE]

Thanks for the feedback.

It also seems like the hobby, especially skimming, finds numerous advancements from hobbyists and small, innovative businesses.

I thought dwell time was crucial, as well as break point. It seems a long way from a useful commercial way to augment skimming, but the interaction on bubbles is intriguing.

With the microbubbles' ability to break slower with some measured application of this, it seems to have great potential. I wouldn't know where to begin with something like this, but I imagine someone would.

Microbubbles that don't pop for a year - compelling article at least.

 

[xJake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12642594#post12642594 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OCEAN SIZE
Thanks for the feedback.

It also seems like the hobby, especially skimming, finds numerous advancements from hobbyists and small, innovative businesses.

I thought dwell time was crucial, as well as break point. It seems a long way from a useful commercial way to augment skimming, but the interaction on bubbles is intriguing.

With the microbubbles' ability to break slower with some measured application of this, it seems to have great potential. I wouldn't know where to begin with something like this, but I imagine someone would.

Microbubbles that don't pop for a year - compelling article at least.

It's very true that this hobby is based on advancements from the hobbyists themselves, i.e. Maxi-jet Stream mod, meshwheel skimmer pump mods, and so forth. All of these were ripped directly from what the hobbyists were doing and were applied commercially.

Don't get me wrong, the article is interesting but it is definitely a long way from being applied to the captive marine industry as a way to improve skimming.

If one can find a feasible way to apply this technique to the design of a protein skimmer it would indeed have almost limitless potential. Someone out there definitely would have some ideas on how to begin applying similar techniques to skimmer improvements, but I think that the topic may be a bit advanced for the majority of the users here.

Very interesting article though, great find. I was wondering how they got that "slow churned" light ice cream to taste so creamy.

 

[OCEAN SIZE]

Light ice cream used to have the consistency of gravel. Now its more like ice cream.

A chemically stable, nearly unbreakable microbubble source... but dialing it in so there is an appropriate breakpoint for skimmate.

Hm. An injection? Or a drip/feed directly into the skimmer intake, since captive reefs may not appreciate that much sugar, nor would the skimmer necessarily need that much.

There are too many smart, technical people on RC not to figure out how to apply this if its in any way feasible. And then sell the rest of us expensive products based on it, of course.

If someone ever makes a syrup-injected commercial megaskimmer, I need to be in beta testing, thats all I ask. Maybe ice cream skimming would make the gunk stink less.

 

[xJake]

I could just imagine the foam head on a skimmer injected with sucrose syrup. People would have to bolt down the collection cup lids. :lol:

As for the problem of using sugar, there are plenty of other salts water can be supersaturated with including good old NaCl. I haven't had any experience with anything else but I suppose it could have the same properties as the sucrose syrup foam.

 

[demonsp]

If you can see the bubble it does no good for your tank.You do know this is the advanced forum?

 

[demonsp]

Oh wait.

:beer: :dumb:

Dont want to offend..

 

[demonsp]

LOL on :dumb: . just trying. Not saying your dumb.
Always have to explaine or i get a PM.......

 

[billsreef]

Keep in mind, when you increase the surface tension, you also reduce the ability for gas exchange. So while you'll get longer lasting bubbles, you'll also reduce the ability of the water to absorb oxygen Cool idea, but not truly practical for us.

 

[Qcks]

Also... just something to note....

People are already doing this via a slightly different mechanism. When people add vodka or vinegar to their system for the expressed purpose of causing a bacterial bloom that can then be skimmed out, their effectively doing the same thing. In fact... adding sucrose to your system is just going to cause a bacterial bloom.

Interestingly, Oxygen levels are of primary concern when carbon dosing.

 

[OCEAN SIZE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12649467#post12649467 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by demonsp
If you can see the bubble it does no good for your tank.You do know this is the advanced forum?

I do. I can, in fact, read English.

"Bee showed a slide of a special formation of extremely tiny bubbles he made during his research using a simple kitchen mixer.
The bubbles were a micrometer in size, which is 1-millionth of a meter. On their surface were scores of tiny hexagon shapes, making them resemble soccer balls."

If you disagree with the potentials for this concept, feel free to articulate chemical or mechanical considerations, rather than trying to discourage me from posting. Thanks.

Qcks - interesting point. I was reading about sugar dosing after I found the article. It seems that sugars are already in play in "Advanced" tanks. The question then becomes how to fine tune and potentially utilize this recently documented research if it has crossover application to skimming/reefkeeping.

Billsreef - Perhaps injecting directly into the skimmer intake would have a positive impact... I would think its a matter of dialing it in. Practicality is the question, definitely, and you make a good point.

So evidently some use sugar now, but in a generalized dosing application rather than a direct skimmer feed.

Has the hobby been trending towards sugar dosing?

 

[Reefer Brian]

I like to inject air into my skimmer. Yeah, it goes right into the pump and then it mixes, makes little bubbles then nasty foam. Wow, I love skimmers.

 

[xJake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12653506#post12653506 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefer Brian
I like to inject air into my skimmer. Yeah, it goes right into the pump and then it mixes, makes little bubbles then nasty foam. Wow, I love skimmers.

If you're trying to be funny or cute (which is highly likely) then your comments are unappreciated and completely uncalled for. I'd appreciate it if you'd keep sarcastic comments to yourself and allow the further progression of the discussion to continue.

As for the thought of injection of sucrose syrup into a skimmer, I don't think the idea is realistic. It would simply be too much sugar and would probably have a negative impact on available nutrients to the photosynthetic organisms in the system. I suppose if the system was large enough and the skimmer was powerful enough then carbon dosing via sucrose syrup could be accomplished, but the bioload in the system would have to be immense to keep photosynthetic organisms from starving.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12651409#post12651409 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OCEAN SIZE

Has the hobby been trending towards sugar dosing?

The hobby has indeed been moving toward carbon dosing via sugar and vodka. Low-nutrient systems such as Prodibio and Zeovit are on the fast track to becoming the norm within the hobby. These systems are based on carbon dosing to strip the tank of nutrients and then dosing the tank with additives to keep nutrients high enough to sustain photosynthetic life. These systems quickly become expensive and little is known as to what is actually being added via the supplements sold by the companies.

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12651409#post12651409 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OCEAN SIZE
Billsreef - Perhaps injecting directly into the skimmer intake would have a positive impact... I would think its a matter of dialing it in. Practicality is the question, definitely, and you make a good point.

That could be an interesting idea to play with. Something like Stress Coat would likely be a good and readily available additive that is known to increase surface tension short term.

The sugar isn't to directly affect skimming, but rather to increase bacterial growth which in turn pulls out nutrients while growing. The bacteria, if it's planktonic, gets skimmed out in turn. However, naturally some of the bacteria bloom from adding sugar will also be benthic and not skimmed out. I don't think sugar or vodka additions have become mainstream, and there are certainly questions left as to just what those addtions are doing for you. After all, simply feeding the tank provides plenty of carbon to our tanks.

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12653809#post12653809 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xJake
The hobby has indeed been moving toward carbon dosing via sugar and vodka. Low-nutrient systems such as Prodibio and Zeovit are on the fast track to becoming the norm within the hobby. These systems are based on carbon dosing to strip the tank of nutrients and then dosing the tank with additives to keep nutrients high enough to sustain photosynthetic life. These systems quickly become expensive and little is known as to what is actually being added via the supplements sold by the companies.

I don't think those systems (Prodibio and Zeovit) are going to become the norm for people that actually like to know what's going in their systems. Their popularity is with people that are willing to add unknowns to their tank based on blind faith in a manufacturer. Essentially they are "black box" systems. They are also filled with inconsistancies, such as stripping all the nutrients only to add nutrients back in as expensive additives. Seems kind of silly me.

 

[OCEAN SIZE]

Hey Reefer Brain, thanks for the clarification. Let me know what those boxes filled with water and aquatic life are called? "Forever in debt for your priceless advice"

Essentially they are "black box" systems. They are also filled with inconsistancies, such as stripping all the nutrients only to add nutrients back in as expensive additives. Seems kind of silly me.

Exactly why I'm not signing up for Zeo, Bill. I'd rather feed cyclopeeze, golden pearls, Reed's, etc. Not just for the cost, but the maintenance, etc. Seems like there are better ways to accomplish the contradictory goals of heavy food, pristine water.

The news article indicates the bubble strength would potentially improve dramatically, in addition to creating other sugar results (bacteria bloom).

Obviously, any way to improve skimming efficiency is a boon. I'm sure there were lurkers and critics when people proposed meshwheel mods, cone skimmers, bubble plates, the first needlewheels, etc. I'm not saying this will work, but it doesn't seem so far off base that I should have asked the question in the Nanotank, Mantis Shrimp, or New To The Hobby forums.

Good discussion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We talked about adding things to increase foam more than a decade ago on Fishnet. While one might be able add something like a soap that was found to be very safe in the tank, and would be continually added to replace what was lost, and that undesirable organics in the water that you want to remove would be more attracted into this coated interface than a clean air/water interface, there are so many "not invented yet" parts to this hypothesis that it doesn't really suggest a good path forward.

Simply coating a bubble with something to keep it from popping will not by itself lead to any greater skimming if, as is almost necessarily the case, the thing you add is occupying the air water interface and preventing the organics that you want to remove from getting onto it. If the undesirable organics did displace this new wonder chemical, the bubble would pop as fast as always. And it also very likely will be a less attractive place for a hydrophobic portion of an organic molecule to go than a clean air/water interface.

 

[OCEAN SIZE]

Thanks RHF ~ I didn't go directly to the chemistry forum with this, since it was a research/news article, which prompted me to question how to apply this, rather than another sugar dosing article (you have many of those going in Chem forum already...)

Its evident that the only way to find out is to simply test it myself and carefully monitor if there are any improvements, though the extra coating on the bubble surface may have a negligible or potentially detrimental effect, as you point out.

I also recognize that you are both an empirical scientist and long-established reefkeeper, so you're less likely to go with the "HEY, what if we dosed orange juice in our systems? There's anecdotal evidence that..."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you dose orange juice and find benefits, I'd suggest getting together with some folks who dose vodka, and see what screwdrivers do for both you and your tanks.

FWIW, I'd be thrilled to have some surface chemistry discussion in the chem forum. My thesis research was in surface and interfacial chemistry.