THE GREAT SKIMMERLESS DEBATE! join on in

[Shawnts106]

So we hear alot of this, skimmerskimmerskimmer talk from the SPS experts, and then someone out of the blue shows up and says, HEY! you dont need a skimmer, check this out! And to everyones surprize they show this amazing skimmerless ACRO TANK and everyone is awed!...

While some people just dismiss it as coincidence, and others just say well... nothing. I am speaking up!

I want to know why these people have sucess, what they do to have sucess, and how we can have better, healthier systems by repeating their process....


WOW there's alot of "cess's" in there! haha


Ok, so obviously a refugium creates a natural environment for microinverts to have babies, the babies, in turn, feed off phytoplankton and therefore get fat and grow to turn into adults. Now in the process of development some of these little guys get eatten by corals... which of course, feeds them, and makes them happy. Feeding corals with these natural micro-invert larvae is good, MAINLY because its a natural food for them, its alive and not freeze dried or frozen, and it makes them grow... We can NOW dose our systems with phytoplankton like DT's LIVE MARINE PHYTOPLANKTON which gives these "little guys" some food to make more of themselves!

But there is that one thing... NO SKIMMER... without a skimmer these babies dont get skimmed out and stay in the tank, which makes more food, and more adults... etc...

But without a skimmer, alot of times we have nutrient buildup which causes undesirable algae to grow and causes our BEAUTIFUL ACROPORA VALIDA to turn into a brown stick blob... wuup-E...

But some people are DEFYING this process of nutrient buildup... or so it seems...

This is where the debate begins!
SOMEHOW these nutrients have to go away... Whether its Water Change's or something mechanical like ALGONE or Whatever from whoever... its got to go somewhere... if not, these people would have brown corals...

Now obviously Nitrates arent a cause of coral browning... There are people with SPS tanks running skimmers and running skimmerless who have nitrates up to 15ppm or so who have beautiful color and PE....

Some of our fellow German Aquarists are actually dosing their aquariums with nitrates... This causes growth from what I understand.

Phosphates are a big issue with alot of us, comming from everything from our own fingers to fish foods to fish waste... they are inevitable! Normally Skimmers help removes these nasty biological byproducts... But what happens when there is no skimmer to help? Water Changes would help wouldn't they... but how has time to constantly be doing them?


So this is where it begins!

I want to hear all about this... FROM DSB to NUTRIENT IMPORT AND EXPORT to how many fish you have .. whatever it be, lets hear it!
I would like for people who have skimmerless systems to tell us all what they do, give us the secret recipe you guys have created and are gaurding...
Lets hear about your WC's how often, Lets hear about additives, and carbon... anything and everything you do to your tanks, lets hear about it!

And for People with Skimmer's lets here your story too!

Lets talk about the benefits and downsides of skimmerless/skimmer systems.

As they say... whoever they is... Pictures are worth ten thousand words... or whatever these "they" people say!... I SAY LETS SEE SOME PICTURES!! SPICE THINGS UP A BIT!
Skimmer or no skimmer show um' off!!!

Hopefully this will be a hit thread and we will be discussing this for a long time and I CAN FINNALY HAVE MY FIRST THREAD SPLIT... haha

 

[Milleme]

I think both methods should be mushed together putting the main factors of both (besides the fact that one has a skimmer and one doesn't) and creating one ultimate method!

But then agian there is probably some reason this wouldn't work. I do not really know how a skimmerless system runs besides the obvious (w/ out a skimmer and w/ a fuge). MOst likely a skimmerles system has some other factor that doesnt fit in w/ a simmed system.

Unless of course if the only real dif. is the skimmer then my whole post was pretty much pointless.

 

[PUGroyale]

Re: THE GREAT SKIMMERLESS DEBATE! join on in

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7532527#post7532527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shawnts106
WOW there's alot of "cess's" in there! haha

...and yet

too few c's

 

[reefer44]

skimmers dont remove these "babies"............so why not add one?

again i post...
Why would u set up a system skimmerless? When you can buy a large skimmer that is going to aid this filter and reduce nutrients to the proper levels?

In a tank like that you can get growth if lightly stocked but much better growth would be found with a skimmer

By the way i dont mean this as rude because i have a few skimmerless systems. But they need so much more time spent on them. If I was wanting a nice display tank for my house I would set up a skimmer.

It puzzles me why aquarist do this when skimmers have been proven and are run on the best systems in the world. Plus to break down all those nitrates into nitrogen gass you need much more anaerobic areas. The amount of nitrates that algae are really composed of is rather low compared to the amount of potential nitrate leaking waste found in your skimmer.

How do u feel not having a protien skimmer leads to more life?
The amount of living material that your skimmer pulls out of the water is usually under 10% of the skimmate. Also skimmers increase the amount of dissolved oxygen, promoting even morelife in the reef. While the bi-products produced by the nitrogen cycle are partly organic acids that eventually lower pH and further more the bacteria that is involved in converting ammonia into nitrates consumes a fair amount of Oxygen

A tank that needs the pristine water conditions of an sps tank should have a skimmer present (if not at least something to control butrient other then live rock and algea; for example a nitrate reactor or phosphate reactor) Algae alone cant reduce nutrients to 0 in a fairly stocked sps tank (maybe you can get by with growth and ok color if you really limit your bioload).

After taking into consideration the need for sps to have low nutrients and realizing it is hard for all nitrates to break down to nitrogen gas or be absorbed by algae as well as phosphates; why would u not add a skimmer to aid this algae filter?

one thing i do not want to hear debated is that reefs can have nitrates......this is not debatable......

and i am not saying fuges, algae scrubbers or any of the sort are bad....i promote using them....but with the aid of a skimmer

 

[reefer44]

and yet i havent seen one of these nice tanks without a skimmer....shawn have any links?

 

[SunnyX]

Well, let me start by saying that my OLD 120gl was run WITHOUT a skimmer. At the time I thought coral growth and color was great. I had some occasional algae but nothing crazy.

When I upgraded to the 225gl I decided to add a skimmer. I purchased a Deltec AP851. Within two weeks of adding the skimmer my corals took on amazing colors, much better in comparison to the old tank. Growth has and still is amazing. My water quality is pristine now and I owe it all to my skimmer. I empty this skimmer every two days and the things it pulls out could drop birds from the sky, it's that nasty.

What I am trying to say is yes you can run a tank without a skimmer, but why handicap yourself in an already demanding hobby?

 

[jsteel]

my friend has a 150g running the ecosystem method. unbelievable tank, corraline growth like crazy and he recently added sps under my suggestion and they are growing like crazy.

he does 10% monthly water changes and only adds Purple Up every couple of days. i wish i had pictures.

here is another example of a skimmerless.

http://www.reefvideos.com/reefshowcase_04_content.html

click on third column left hand side, he explains his setup.

i have no idea why these systems work, the ecosystem didn't work for me but i can't deny my friend's success.

 

[SunnyX]

Shawnts106, I dont understand your take on refugiums.

I have a refugium in my sump AND I skimm heavily. I never feed anything to my tank other then fish food. To be honest I dont understand why people waste their money on DT's and such. Why make your tank dirtier than it has to be?

 

[orion76]

Why all the long posts?

Can SPS survive in a tank without a skimmer? Yes.

Is a skimmerless optimal for an SPS tank? No.

What else needs to be said on the subject?

 

[dvanacker]

Guys you really have to see this advancedaquarists tank feature. Its an 80gallon run with out a skimmer using a plenum. He calls it the "Jaubert System". He also only uses 4 x 54 watt T5's on his 80gallon tank with SPS simply everywhere. This alone is amazing.

HERE IS THE LINK..

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/2/aquarium

 

[Milleme]

I guess no matter what kind of system you use (in reason) as long as water quality is good and everything is kept in check you will succed. What ever you put into it is what you will get out of it.

 

[phileas]

gorgeous.

 

[3.99AfterTaxes]

I have strong suspicions that most people's tanks would run at their peak potentials WITH a skimmer. Like someone mentioned earlier, it is, in most instances, a severe handicap to run skimmerless unless you know exactly what you're doing.

 

[Jeremy Blaze]

Okay, I guess since I got this started, I'll join in.

What I do for skimmerless systems;

Slow stocking of fish, I do not add a bunch of fish right off. I let the tank run for a couple months without any fish.
Light fish load. My 120 will have 8-10 fish, most will be small.

I run Carbon and phosban 24/7

I have a lot of algae growing in my sump/ refugium. Cheatomorphia, calurpa, etc.. This gets harvetsed weekly.

I run a DSB in the display as well as the sump.

I do not add anything to the tank, such as trace elements, etc..

I occasionally add calcium or buffer as needed.

Of course, I apply these prectices to any tank I run, skimmed or not.

As for more life in the tank. I can see it. My skimmerless tanks always have a much more noticable amount of sponges, micro inverts, etc..

As for seeing tanks without skimmers, take a lot at Mike Pelattas Ultimate Marine Aquariums book. There are several nice skimmerless tanks. In fact, check out the one From Sandys Pet Shop ( Bruce Davidson) This is a freind of mine, and the color and growth in this skimmerless tank was amazing.

Also, Inland Aquatics. They are skimmerless.

Okay, here are some pics of my old 125. Skimmerless (and it was only lit by 2 MH, on a 6ft tank, another thaig that 'can't be xdoen')

I am not saying it is the only way, or that novices without patiance should do it. But, IME, and I repeat, IME, I have Personally had Better expereinces with a skimmerless tank and perfer this method, for a simple, low maintance display.

 

[SunnyX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7534336#post7534336 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze

I am not saying it is the only way, or that novices without patiance should do it. But, IME, and I repeat, IME, I have Personally had Better expereinces with a skimmerless tank and perfer this method, for a simple, low maintance display.

What is so high maintenance about a skimmer?

It takes me only 2 minutes to clean the skimmer cup 3 times a week.

I still do not understand why anyone would WANT to run a tank without a skimmer.

Yes you can have success without a skimmer, but I know for a FACT that if you added a skimmer on to these skimmerless systems they would improve in appearance.

What happens if you need to treat for red bug? You need the skimmer to pull the medication out of the tank.

What happens when your clams decided to spawn?

If for nothing else you need the skimmer for added insurance and peace of mind.

I dont know about you, but I dont want any of that crud my skimmer pulls out to remain in my tank. I dont know how my skimmer pulls out that much crap, my water quality is perfect, but it pulls it from somewhere.

Why would you want to leave that crap in the water?

All of this makes no sense to me.

Why not use a technology that CAN and WILL make your job much easier while making your tank cleaner, clearer and more enjoyable to look at?

 

[SunnyX]

I also wanted to note that SKIMMING is a NATURAL process. The ocean is skimmed everyday. You can find the info in Reef Aquarium Vol. 3 .

 

[Jeremy Blaze]

Again, I am not anti skimmer. I have run them on tanks in the past, and my 1200 gallon reef has one.

I may just add a skimmer to my new tank down the road, and see what heppens. Stay tuned to my build log on that tank.

 

[SunnyX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7534407#post7534407 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze
Again, I am not anti skimmer. I have run them on tanks in the past, and my 1200 gallon reef has one.

I may just add a skimmer to my new tank down the road, and see what heppens. Stay tuned to my build log on that tank.

Sounds promising to me. :thumbsup:

 

[Jeremy Blaze]

In fact, I was thinking of doing it just to see what happened. I had a skimmer in the sump when it was on the old tank, but it didn't work right, so I never ran it. I think I figured out what was wrong with it, but when i set this tank up, It wouldn't fit due to different plumbing.

I'll let you in on a little secret, I used to own a company building skimmers, and sumps, our products have been featured in books such as The Consceintious Marine Aquarist, and Natural Reef Aquariums.

So, I know a little bit about skimmers. I may build another one that will fit into this new tank.

 

[dvanacker]

If you see my post.....I dont know how that tank could get any better. Its looks amazing and its done with a plenum and 2.7 watts of light per gallon.

Almost makes me wanna try it......but then again it almost seems to good to be true.