THE GREAT SKIMMERLESS DEBATE! join on in

[SunnyX]

Honestly, why advocate against the use of skimmers?

Why create a thread that may sway new reefers onto the wrong path. In life, and the reef hobby for that matter, we must strive to keep moving forward.


I have a 30gl LPS/ZOO/Shroom tank that is currently running skimmerless. The tank is clean and looks good, but the tank is only a few months old. In this setup a skimmerless system could be of use, but it has no place in an SPS system.

I firmly belive that for an SPS tank to run at its best it MUST include a skimmer. After seeing the HUGE improvement a large skimmer can make I would NEVER run one without it.

To the thread starter, why would you want our hobby to move backward?

You cant argue with the results of running a large skimmer on an SPS tank:

 

[reefer44]

shawn if ur refering to nutrients as nitrates and phosphates then your mistaken u want them "0" (well .0015ppm)......this is proven please stop argueing that its not

NITRATES DO INHIBIT CALCIFICATION AND FISH CAN GET NITRATE POISONING IN EXTREME CASES

PHOSPHATES ALSO INHIBIT CALCIFICATION AND LEAD TO BROWN CORALS AS WELL AS ALGAE PROBLEMS

Brad

 

[Shawnts106]

Why create a thread that may sway new reefers onto the wrong path.

Well, most new "reefers" don't know about reef central.. so I dought we are swaying them away from what is best...

this is also an SPS thread, which MOST newbies probably are thinking SPS stands for something other than Small Polyps Stoney and for that matter, not even know what that means. So Im not to worried.

shawn if ur refering to nutrients as nitrates and phosphates then your mistaken u want them "0" (well .0015ppm)......this is proven please stop argueing that its not

LOL, reefer ... take a chill pill, I only posted ONCE that I didnt argree..

and Im sorry, but 15 BILLIONTHS of a ppm is not "0"...
I must have taken your previous post too literally.

As for the second half of your post... yes I agree... but why did you YELL IT?

Calm yourself please....

 

[reefer44]

haha im chill just emphasizin

Brad

 

[Shawnts106]

Oh, brad, glad you posted... reminds me, please pm me so I can get in touch with the company...
Got on the site today... emailed that to my boss... is there a # I can get?

 

[G-money]

SunnyX,

Do you really think there is a chance that a single thread on skimmerless tanks is going to sway all kinds of newbies in the wrong direction? I highly doubt it. A first timer to Reef Central would be quickly pummeled with tons of skimmer talk - and would no doubt find their selection of one among one of the more daunting tasks in setting up their tank. I don't think it's fair to call Shawn out on this. This is more than a valid thread - in fact, it's better than 90% of the threads in this forum IMO. Besides the fact that a newbie ain't jumping into SPS...most likely.

Even reading this thread, a coherent person would be able to quickly deduce that running a skimmer is probably a real good thing to do, since about everyone in this thread says they use them - and generally advocates them.

I don't really understand, though, why you would say "you can't argue with results" and post pics of your tank. Are you saying that a tank that looks like yours couldn't be achieved without a skimmer? That your tank epitomizes the results everyone should be after? I admit it's a nice looking tank, but it's nothing out of the ordinary.

No one is "advocating against the use of skimmers", so please don't make it sound like this thread is a disservice.

 

[Shawnts106]

A first timer to Reef Central would be quickly pummeled with tons of skimmer talk - and would no doubt find their selection of one among one of the more daunting tasks in setting up their tank. I don't think it's fair to call Shawn out on this. This is more than a valid thread - in fact, it's better than 90% of the threads in this forum IMO. Besides the fact that a newbie ain't jumping into SPS...most likely.

Thank you very much, MUCH appreciated.
and I agree.

No one is "advocating against the use of skimmers", so please don't make it sound like this thread is a disservice.

No, we are not.


This is a discussion on sps tanks ran without skimmers, look at results and looking at possible solutions and alternatives.
We have already established that running a tank without a skimmer is more work.... Skimmers make things much easier!

 

[Big E]

First off good thread......I'm with G-Money, 90% of the SPS threads now are utter crap. It's refreshing to get a thought provoking thread. Used to be the norm around here,but now we're inundated with way too many "look at me" threads & posts.

Sunny not to pile on but just a few comments..........

I firmly belive that for an SPS tank to run at its best it MUST include a skimmer. After seeing the HUGE improvement a large skimmer can make I would NEVER run one without it.

You have 4 tangs, a rabbit fish, anthias harem, damsel, not sure what else fish wise. The tank is heavy stocked with SPS. Is it such a suprise that a larger skimmer helped you?

Now what if you had a 1/4 of that fish load. What's the point of having a huge skimmer? Or one at all if other means of export can do the job?

Your skimmer is hardly oversized for your bioload & tank size. I would say it's about right & maybe even undersized.

To the thread starter, why would you want our hobby to move backward?

You cant argue with the results of running a large skimmer on an SPS tank:

I'll argue it............I went with a large skimmer & it changed nothing. My system is 160g total volume with an AP702 running. Substantially larger than your skimmer,& I have less than 1/3 of the bioload you have in fish & corals.

Regardless of the system size & bioload it's all about BALANCE............... finding the sweet spot that looks good to you. Skimmer size or no skimmer is only one variable to meet this balance.

 

[SunnyX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7630231#post7630231 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by G-money
SunnyX,
I don't really understand, though, why you would say "you can't argue with results" and post pics of your tank. Are you saying that a tank that looks like yours couldn't be achieved without a skimmer? That your tank epitomizes the results everyone should be after? I admit it's a nice looking tank, but it's nothing out of the ordinary.

What I was trying to say was that I could never have achieved these results without a skimmer. I was not implying that I had the best tank out there or that you should strive to run your tank like mine. Although I am very proud of the fact that a year ago the tank was all frags and is now flourishing, so I hardly think it is ordinary.

I ran a 120gl skimmerless before with only TWO fish and I had no where near the growth and color I have now in my corals. There can be no explanation other than the skimmer was the key factor in creating this increase of growth and coloration.

 

[G-money]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7638122#post7638122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SunnyX
Although I am very proud of the fact that a year ago the tank was all frags and is now flourishing, so I hardly think it is ordinary.

Much like I hardly think my tank is ordinary. But I don't expect anyone else to see it through my eyes nor understand my pride. I just wouldn't use pictures of my tank as a reason to use a skimmer. It's about much more than that.
That's not the point, though. As I said, you have a nice tank.

I ran a 120gl skimmerless before with only TWO fish and I had no where near the growth and color I have now in my corals. There can be no explanation other than the skimmer was the key factor in creating this increase of growth and coloration.

But just because you didn't get the results you were after doesn't mean it's an unworthy concept - especially of discussion. Perhaps you failed to employ certain methods (other than a skimmer) that would have served the system better? It's possible.

 

[salt-rookie]

If you DON'T skim, how often do you need to do water changes? Also HOW careful do you have be when feeding??

 

[Shawnts106]

First off good thread......I'm with G-Money, 90% of the SPS threads now are utter crap. It's refreshing to get a thought provoking thread.

Much Appreciated!

But just because you didn't get the results you were after doesn't mean it's an unworthy concept - especially of discussion. Perhaps you failed to employ certain methods (other than a skimmer) that would have served the system better? It's possible.

That is possible, as well as alot of other possibilitys, includeing feeding, how often your doing water changes and also if there have been any fish added.

If you DON'T skim, how often do you need to do water changes? Also HOW careful do you have be when feeding??

Very, and Very

I would say, depending on your bioload, which is a HUGE factor in itsself, which changes depending on what species of coral and fish you are houseing together, how many fish, size and age of the fish, what they are eatting, and how much they are eatting daily... ... often.

At LEAST once a week 15% or so.... but thats just me.THIS IS WAYYYYYYY more work than its worth...

just save up what you would spend in salt, and buy a darn skimmer!


People often think that if they do more waterchanges they dont need a skimmer, this is true, varies dramatically but its true.
HOWEVER, they end up spending more in salt and water than they do if they were to just buy a skimmer.


Your only cheating yourself if you dont get a skimmer IMO.


I SPEAK FROM EXPERIENCE!

I used to be one of these ECOSYSTEM people... yeah, back in the day!.. haha

Refugium, and a crap seaclone was ALL I thought I needed... RIGHTTTTT... algae algae algae... and dirty water...


I was wrong... Colors were bland, everything was healthy, don't get me wrong.. but colors were just bland...

After doing some major water changes, and getting the ASMG2 I can see a big difference in coral color.... while my euphyllias did NOT appreciate the addition to make my life easier, and tank more algae free... colors just exploded.

reds, yellows, blue and all really look alot better!
I saw a montipora and my tortusa POP before my very eyes!
While I can say that I think a skimmer helped in my case, I cant say it for everyone...


If you have a 5 gallon nanocube, with an HQI pendent and some acro frags ... chances are, waterchanges would save you money.

but if you have a 500 gallon reef tank with 50 zillion different species of acropora, montipora and whatever else..

chances are, your going to need a skimmer...

 

[salt-rookie]

This also has to beg the question, where is the line between proper skimming and OVER skimming?

 

[G-money]

Define "over-skimming". Is there such a thing?
How many tanks have you seen that are overskimmed? How would you even know they're overskimmed? What is significantly removed by skimming that would negatively impact corals if its concentration was diminished via skimming?

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7639644#post7639644 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by G-money
Define "over-skimming". Is there such a thing?
How many tanks have you seen that are overskimmed? How would you even know they're overskimmed? What is significantly removed by skimming that would negatively impact corals if its concentration was diminished via skimming?

Take a look at all the threads that are like " I went BB and upgraded to a 400g skimmer, and my corals lightened up too mcuh" or "I upgraded my lights and now I can't get my corals to color up"


THose are all examples of overskimming.



Theres an easy solution though: Buy more fish.

 

[MiddletonMark]

Rich - that could be argued to be underfeeding.

 

[salt-rookie]

In the context that I used it...I was a HYPOTHETICAL concept in which ALL (100%) of nutrients are gone and the corals can only survive on photosynthesis.

 

[Big E]

Mark & Rich........you're both right. Depends on how you look at it.

Imo, like I mentioned earlier it's about creating that balance or sweet spot for the corals. You can add more fish, feed more, or just turn the skimmer off occasionally, or the ozone, UV........any export equipment/product that's controllable.

They each will raise the nutrient level or allow more particulate matter & bacterial flock to get to the corals.

I'd opt for the feed more as it's easiest to control............& I'd do it with the coral foods versus the fish food. Not the oyster eggs or cyclopeeze, but the amino acid type products out now. The only reason being they are easy to measure out & control the # of drops. The downside is not knowing what's in them.

I also prefer not to overfeed the fish as it's not healthy for them & they'll probably just pass it right out.

In the end, whichever food is used it's just pollution or nutrients your adding directly to the tank. I doubt it matters much as long as it's organic & the bacteria & corals can process it.

 

[G-money]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7639734#post7639734 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Take a look at all the threads that are like " I went BB and upgraded to a 400g skimmer, and my corals lightened up too mcuh" or "I upgraded my lights and now I can't get my corals to color up"

Those are all examples of overskimming.

I can't really buy that. Upgrading lights (assuming higher output) is going to decrease zoox density and result in a more pastel looking coral - practically every time, nutrients aside.

BB is also just generally a lower nutrient environment (less potential for nutrient retention). When there are multiple variables such as "I went BB" and "I upgraded my skimmer", there's no way to definitively say it's due to too much skimming. One variable at a time.

IMO, overskimming is largely a myth. Just because a tank is lacking some certain growth or color "factor(s)" doesn't mean it's because they're being skimmed out. Maybe they're not there in the first place. People have this notion that almost everything and anything can be skimmed, when in reality it's a very select group of molecules that are susceptible. Which is why commercial entities never rely solely on skimming to keep their water clean. It's not the be all-end all of nutrient removal.

In the end, I'm with Big E - it's about finding that sweet spot and it usually happens by accident.

 

[Serioussnaps]

blah blah blah...How do you REALLY know it is skimmerless? Could it be a hoax? A conspiracy? A lie? A plot to get everyone to stop buying skimmers buy some guy whos own skimmer line went down the tubes? You never know!

All kidding aside...i wouldnt go skimmerless on any tank, unless it was just a tank of water and rock....if that kind of thing floats your boat