sherm71tank
Premium Member
I use the glass bottom of my tank (it's at least 3/4" thick) and I have no concern of it breaking.
The "How to go Barebottom thread."
- Thread starter SeanT
- Start date
FranktheTankTx
New member
This is a great thread!! I have to be honest, I did not read every post... I skipped a few pages here and there. But I got the jist of this thread... which I read thru over a dozen pages easily.
So I've been bouncing back and forth on going BB or 2" sand bed in my 36g corner tank. Of course the sand bed is natural looking, however I've actually had some thoughts of covering the bottom with zoo's. I don't know if I will keep any SPS in this tank. At this point, I really have been thinking about doing zoo's and rics only. But, again undecided.
So like some others... it's difficult to completely rid yourself of the DSB and macro algae. If I did go BB, I intended to do a "display" fuge with 4-5" DSB with some cheato. But, I continue to read that a refugium is just not necessary. My cabinet space under the 36g was only 16"x11" which I made a custom sump w/ a skimmer and return section only. I'm running a Bermuda 3C w/ a Quiet One 3000 on it (780gph). Operational volume of the sump is about 7.5g giving me a total of 43.5g including the DT.
So I do not have to have a refugium? Really??? What if I'm not doing SPS? Would I need a remote DSB for a zoo and ric tank? I just have this vision of some day having a bed of zoo's on the bottom of the glass. I won't do starboard. I will stabilize the LR very well before hand.
Also, why do some say no hermits? I mean, inverts are one of my favorite parts to a reef tank. Personally, I plan on having a few hermits (electric blue, scarlet and blue leg). Nothing overkill just 10 or so. I was going small... and as they grow, trade them in for small ones again.
So tell me about this refugium (DSB & cheato) idea. Is it just not necessary, or does the fact I plan on doing zoo's and rics make it a possible need?
So I've been bouncing back and forth on going BB or 2" sand bed in my 36g corner tank. Of course the sand bed is natural looking, however I've actually had some thoughts of covering the bottom with zoo's. I don't know if I will keep any SPS in this tank. At this point, I really have been thinking about doing zoo's and rics only. But, again undecided.
So like some others... it's difficult to completely rid yourself of the DSB and macro algae. If I did go BB, I intended to do a "display" fuge with 4-5" DSB with some cheato. But, I continue to read that a refugium is just not necessary. My cabinet space under the 36g was only 16"x11" which I made a custom sump w/ a skimmer and return section only. I'm running a Bermuda 3C w/ a Quiet One 3000 on it (780gph). Operational volume of the sump is about 7.5g giving me a total of 43.5g including the DT.
So I do not have to have a refugium? Really??? What if I'm not doing SPS? Would I need a remote DSB for a zoo and ric tank? I just have this vision of some day having a bed of zoo's on the bottom of the glass. I won't do starboard. I will stabilize the LR very well before hand.
Also, why do some say no hermits? I mean, inverts are one of my favorite parts to a reef tank. Personally, I plan on having a few hermits (electric blue, scarlet and blue leg). Nothing overkill just 10 or so. I was going small... and as they grow, trade them in for small ones again.
So tell me about this refugium (DSB & cheato) idea. Is it just not necessary, or does the fact I plan on doing zoo's and rics make it a possible need?
FranktheTankTx
New member
Oh, P.S. I planned on 2-Koralia 3's & abotu 350gph return. Should be about 57x flow. Good for BB or need more? I could go with a #4 and #3 w/ my return giving me a 66x flow. What do you think?
Three things:
First, great thread.
Second, is there a black starboard? Or perhaps you could use black acrylic.
Third, they sell a kind of weatherstripping that some have used to adhere and seal baffles in home built refugiums. I wonder, if you could put this (or a thinner variant) along the bottom edges of your starboard (or black acrylic) and prevent detritis build up under the board (assuming it seals the space under it)?
Just a little brainstorm as I mull over this bare bottom stuff
Thanks for reading.
First, great thread.
Second, is there a black starboard? Or perhaps you could use black acrylic.
Third, they sell a kind of weatherstripping that some have used to adhere and seal baffles in home built refugiums. I wonder, if you could put this (or a thinner variant) along the bottom edges of your starboard (or black acrylic) and prevent detritis build up under the board (assuming it seals the space under it)?
Just a little brainstorm as I mull over this bare bottom stuff
Thanks for reading.
SeanT
Premium Member
cl2ysta1, the tank looks great. :thumbsup:
Ã" onic, they do make black Starboard.
Available here http://www.cuttingboardcompany.com/ and other places as well.
Sean
Ã" onic, they do make black Starboard.
Available here http://www.cuttingboardcompany.com/ and other places as well.
Sean
trueblackpercula
New member
Hey SeanT post some pictures of your BB tank
Michael
Michael
I am considering going bb on my 12 month old system, (60 gall cube 30 gallon sump) I have a 2 inch sandbed that has been dissapearing over the last few months as I have upped the flow and had sandsstorms. I have a vortech (3000gallon) and a 1300 gallon retum pump on a wavysea(70 times flow).
i have a deltec mc500 skimmer, and a small fuge in the sump with cheato.
I have all my rockwork and sps epoxied and growing over the rock so cant really rip it out, can I siphon the sand over time, I wont be cooking the rocks either, is it worth it? or am I likely to incur high trates due to rocks not being cooked, I do keep them very clean with a weekly blasting.
thanks.
i have a deltec mc500 skimmer, and a small fuge in the sump with cheato.
I have all my rockwork and sps epoxied and growing over the rock so cant really rip it out, can I siphon the sand over time, I wont be cooking the rocks either, is it worth it? or am I likely to incur high trates due to rocks not being cooked, I do keep them very clean with a weekly blasting.
thanks.
mattsilvester
Team RC
I am thinking that it could work - just be prepared for a relatively large amount of work over a relatively long period..... but it also depends on how open your structure is - i.e. can you get in behind and under rocks to syphon the sand and inevitable detritus - and are you confident the structure won't collapse without the sand under it to semi-support it. With regard to the latter - while you may have made sure yoru rock touches the bottom, the san will have the effect of cushioning any small inconsistancies thereby stabalising it. Haveing sad that, I doubt you have any really heavy / large peice of rock, so it is probably not a big concern.
Assuming you can get the sand out, that is the easy bit. For quite some time you are going to have detritus, silt, sand, and god knows what else falling off your rock - this will require constant and regular syphoning until it is all out.
By ensuring very strong flow behind your rockwork, you will help clean it up also. The fact that you have "kept it clean" over the last 12 months will help also.
Having said all the above, I cannot 100% endorse what you propose. Personally, my route to BB was a coming together of circumstances. A combination of a long battle against hair algae and 'ich'. I was on the brink of taking the plunge to go barebottom but was not quite sure about a few things - then I had an episode with 'ich' and lacked the facilities to treat an emporer angel and 4 tangs (plus others) so too the unorthodox step of treating with hypo in the display tank.... which mean removing all my LR and all the sand to prevent die off from critters etc. The large scale waterchanges to remove the sand coincided with the water changes required to remove sand. It also enabled me time to cook my rock. Suffice to say, a couple of months later the hypo was sucessful, the rocks cooked nicely, and al lthe sand was gone. That was over 6 months ago, and I have never looked back since!
Since then, I clean the glass once a week (routine) - although once in 10 days-2weeks would probably be enough. I clean the skimmer weekly (should be every 3 days, but.....). I do a small monthly waterchange (about 10%). I have been trying to grow macro in my sump, but it is slow to say the least. Nitrate climbed to about 20ppm as teh system was adapting, but it is SLOWLY subsiding..... well it hasn't increased, so by my count that is a slow decrease..... if I did 20% water changes it would tip the balance I'm sure, but things are great as is, so if it ain't broke.......
My point - well if you are "thinking" of changing to BB then either:
(a) You are not 100% happy with the way things are with your tank.
(b) You just want to tinker around a bit, and fancy a bit of a change.
If it is the latter, and generally you are otherwise happy with the tank, then let it be........ if it is the former, and you are not happy with it, then I would say over time you will be less and less happy - and the mroe mature your tank gets, the harder it will be to convert.
So basically what I am saying is this - if you are not happy with it, then convert now - and go the whole hog - and cook the rock..........
HTH
Matt
SeanT
Premium Member
Nothing to look at right now, I have all the rock in "cooking" tubs and the corals on a frag rack.
I have a new 300 gallon cube being shipped out on Friday.
UPGRADE TIME!!!
Some pics from all of that here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1370756&perpage=25&pagenumber=6
Hah great reply thanks, and option b it is I am a habitual tinkerer, if everything is fine then I have to start messing around.<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12730089#post12730089 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mattsilvester
I am thinking that it could work - just be prepared for a relatively large amount of work over a relatively long period..... but it also depends on how open your structure is - i.e. can you get in behind and under rocks to syphon the sand and inevitable detritus - and are you confident the structure won't collapse without the sand under it to semi-support it. With regard to the latter - while you may have made sure yoru rock touches the bottom, the san will have the effect of cushioning any small inconsistancies thereby stabalising it. Haveing sad that, I doubt you have any really heavy / large peice of rock, so it is probably not a big concern.
Assuming you can get the sand out, that is the easy bit. For quite some time you are going to have detritus, silt, sand, and god knows what else falling off your rock - this will require constant and regular syphoning until it is all out.
By ensuring very strong flow behind your rockwork, you will help clean it up also. The fact that you have "kept it clean" over the last 12 months will help also.
Having said all the above, I cannot 100% endorse what you propose. Personally, my route to BB was a coming together of circumstances. A combination of a long battle against hair algae and 'ich'. I was on the brink of taking the plunge to go barebottom but was not quite sure about a few things - then I had an episode with 'ich' and lacked the facilities to treat an emporer angel and 4 tangs (plus others) so too the unorthodox step of treating with hypo in the display tank.... which mean removing all my LR and all the sand to prevent die off from critters etc. The large scale waterchanges to remove the sand coincided with the water changes required to remove sand. It also enabled me time to cook my rock. Suffice to say, a couple of months later the hypo was sucessful, the rocks cooked nicely, and al lthe sand was gone. That was over 6 months ago, and I have never looked back since!
Since then, I clean the glass once a week (routine) - although once in 10 days-2weeks would probably be enough. I clean the skimmer weekly (should be every 3 days, but.....). I do a small monthly waterchange (about 10%). I have been trying to grow macro in my sump, but it is slow to say the least. Nitrate climbed to about 20ppm as teh system was adapting, but it is SLOWLY subsiding..... well it hasn't increased, so by my count that is a slow decrease..... if I did 20% water changes it would tip the balance I'm sure, but things are great as is, so if it ain't broke.......
My point - well if you are "thinking" of changing to BB then either:
(a) You are not 100% happy with the way things are with your tank.
(b) You just want to tinker around a bit, and fancy a bit of a change.
If it is the latter, and generally you are otherwise happy with the tank, then let it be........ if it is the former, and you are not happy with it, then I would say over time you will be less and less happy - and the mroe mature your tank gets, the harder it will be to convert.
So basically what I am saying is this - if you are not happy with it, then convert now - and go the whole hog - and cook the rock..........
HTH
Matt
I have decided to move a little rock to prevent the sand storms, the easy option.
After a very uneventful trip to the fish stores and my being at a loose end on friday night I decided that bb was for me.
So I mixed up about 30 percent tank volume and got busy, frags and colonies went into a flat tray with some tank water and a powerhead, (the missus was out obviously)then covered the floor in towels, I then took out enough water to cover my lr in a bucket and removed the live rock.
Next I caught the fish, no nets, and put them in a bucket.
I then used a dustpan to remove the bulk of the sand and siphoned out the last bit of sand and crap, the water was a deep brown colour due to the crap in the sand.
Now I cleaned small amounts of algae from the rock and shook the in water and placed them back in the tank, followed by the corals and reaquascaped (nightmare).
Put the fish and inverts back in fired it all up, cleaned up.
I have been using prodibio so added a dose of bioclean.
I will change a further 10% from the sump water today and change the filter sock
all looks great but my camera is broken so no pics.
Positives:
Caught (and killed ) two large furry crabs that had been eating my acros.
Caught a mcc,s pseudochromis that had been smashing my other fish.
Tank looks great.
No sand storms.
Can powerup my vortech.
No detritus has settled on the bottom at all and there was alot of it in the water, the skimmer took care of a substantial amount of it.
Negatives:
Large grazes on my hands.
Reaquascaping and the house of cards effect.
Acute back pain.
Thats all really.
Bring on the nitrates.
So I mixed up about 30 percent tank volume and got busy, frags and colonies went into a flat tray with some tank water and a powerhead, (the missus was out obviously)then covered the floor in towels, I then took out enough water to cover my lr in a bucket and removed the live rock.
Next I caught the fish, no nets, and put them in a bucket.
I then used a dustpan to remove the bulk of the sand and siphoned out the last bit of sand and crap, the water was a deep brown colour due to the crap in the sand.
Now I cleaned small amounts of algae from the rock and shook the in water and placed them back in the tank, followed by the corals and reaquascaped (nightmare).
Put the fish and inverts back in fired it all up, cleaned up.
I have been using prodibio so added a dose of bioclean.
I will change a further 10% from the sump water today and change the filter sock
all looks great but my camera is broken so no pics.
Positives:
Caught (and killed
) two large furry crabs that had been eating my acros.Caught a mcc,s pseudochromis that had been smashing my other fish.
Tank looks great.
No sand storms.
Can powerup my vortech.
No detritus has settled on the bottom at all and there was alot of it in the water, the skimmer took care of a substantial amount of it.
Negatives:
Large grazes on my hands.
Reaquascaping and the house of cards effect.
Acute back pain.
Thats all really.
Bring on the nitrates.
SeanT
Premium Member
A small bit of advice.
Any rocks that are not frag covered I would "cook".
Or at the VERY least, make up 15 gallons of saltwater, add it to your system, siphon the same amount out and use that to dunk and swish the heck out of those rocks.
Have fun while watching that water turn brown.
Any rocks that are not frag covered I would "cook".
Or at the VERY least, make up 15 gallons of saltwater, add it to your system, siphon the same amount out and use that to dunk and swish the heck out of those rocks.
Have fun while watching that water turn brown.
juststartingout
New member
Sean,
At what point does a sandbed depth become ineffective as a biological filter? I ask because I have a thin layer .5-1" of southdown and it is constantly blowin up on my rocks, I am thinking about removing all of it, just not sure of the backlash except for clean rock in a few months.
At what point does a sandbed depth become ineffective as a biological filter? I ask because I have a thin layer .5-1" of southdown and it is constantly blowin up on my rocks, I am thinking about removing all of it, just not sure of the backlash except for clean rock in a few months.
All is going well with my sand removal, I have a slight algae increase but my corals, believe it or not are coloring up.
Alot of crap coming out of the rocks as predicted though, I have upped the dose of prodibio bioclean, to preempt the sloughing.
Alot of crap coming out of the rocks as predicted though, I have upped the dose of prodibio bioclean, to preempt the sloughing.
SeanT
Premium Member
juststartingout,
If I remember correctly, I believe it is a minimum of 4-6" in depth for a sand bed to be able to perform denitrification effectively with a footprint equal to at least a 29 gallon tank.
Someone please let me know if my addled brain is failing me.
Removing it shouldn't be a problem, if you have concerns, remove it in sections.
Sean
If I remember correctly, I believe it is a minimum of 4-6" in depth for a sand bed to be able to perform denitrification effectively with a footprint equal to at least a 29 gallon tank.
Someone please let me know if my addled brain is failing me.
Removing it shouldn't be a problem, if you have concerns, remove it in sections.
Sean
trueblackpercula
New member
4" inches is plenty its the grian size that mattersa more :0
Michael
Michael
NewbieForever
New member
There was a paper posted a while back that showed that denitrification could occur in a sandbed of less then .5" IME a shallower bed that is never stirred just fills faster with detritus then a deep bed that is also never stirred. Common sense I guess...
