The Moorish Idol Thread

[Paul B]

I collected a bunch of New York sponge today, I found a place that is full of the stuff so I got enough to last me through the winter. I freeze it.

This last picture of sponge grows along with the other encrusting stuff but the Idol won't eat this, he loves the other disquesting stuff though. Of course I don't know if it is good for him or not. The other fish do not eat it. I guess it can't be too bad he is over three years old and about 6". Along with the sponge I got dozens of live baby sand worms which my copperband butterfly went nuts over
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[blueregaltang]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7927751#post7927751 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
I collected a bunch of New York sponge today, I found a place that is full of the stuff so I got enough to last me through the winter. I freeze it.

This last picture of sponge grows along with the other encrusting stuff but the Idol won't eat this, he loves the other disquesting stuff though. Of course I don't know if it is good for him or not. The other fish do not eat it. I guess it can't be too bad he is over three years old and about 6". Along with the sponge I got dozens of live baby sand worms which my copperband butterfly went nuts over
Have a great day.
Paul

Hi Paul
I'm Portuguese and have been in the hobby for over 30 years, of which 20 with marine tanks, first fish then reef.
This sponge your Idol loves, do you know its scientific name?
I've got an Idol and would like to feed him a similar stuff. Now I also live on parallel 49 but on the other side of the Atlantic (Vila Nova de Gaia - South bank of river Douro just 100 meters from Porto City (yes Port Wine) and from what I know, the sea waters are not that different and I also found a similar "sponge"?? attached to the non exposed side of some rocks at the beach, so I'll give it a try, maybe it works. Can you give me more details about this sponge your Idol loves and how you collected it? Maybe a photograph of the place and detail?

Kind regards

BlueRegalTang (Pedro Nuno)

 

[Reefing102]

thats alot of sponge

 

[Paul B]

Pedro, I collect it about 12" from the surface on floating wooden docks. It is some type of encrusting sponge and it does not grow very large, maybe an inch high. I never saw it on rocks only on floating docks at that depth. It grows larger on the sunny side of the dock. The water temp here now is about 68 or 70 degrees. My Idol does not like that tree looking sponge that grows together with the other stuff. I don't know the scientific name but it is very common here in the Long Island Sound. I do not find it on the Atlantic beaches but there are not too many docks there because the water is too rough.
Paul

 

[blueregaltang]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7951922#post7951922 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
Pedro, I collect it about 12" from the surface on floating wooden docks. It is some type of encrusting sponge and it does not grow very large, maybe an inch high. I never saw it on rocks only on floating docks at that depth. It grows larger on the sunny side of the dock. The water temp here now is about 68 or 70 degrees. My Idol does not like that tree looking sponge that grows together with the other stuff. I don't know the scientific name but it is very common here in the Long Island Sound. I do not find it on the Atlantic beaches but there are not too many docks there because the water is too rough.
Paul

Good Morning Paul
Thank you for your detailed reply. Floating wooden docks, you say, well I can just remember a similar thing over here which might just be a possibility...we will see. Never the less from your description, the colour and looks of that dark yellow sponge, an inch high, I belive I saw just a very similar stuff attached to the base of a rock plunged in a small tide pool left at low tide and exposed to the sun light, two weeks ago at the rocky beach were I collect fresh algae and live shrimp to feed my fish. So I'm going over there at low tide and give it a try. Let you know the result.
68 or 70 (20 or 21 Ã"šÃ‚ºC), well thats slightly higher than what we have over here which is between 59 and 66.2.

Kind regards
BlueRegalTang (Pedro Nuno)

 

[Paul B]

Pedro, one more thing, my Idol can't rip pieces off the sponge. It has to be cut in bitesize pieces. I freeze it and scrape off small pieces. Idols have very weak mouths.
Paul

 

[blueregaltang]

Hi Paul
Following your most valuable informations, I proceeded to collect the local sponge as mentioned. In fact we have to species in our cost that go by the scientific names of Hymeniacidon sanguinea and Halichondria panicea.
I presented them in small bits to the Moorish idol and it showed some interest giving it small bites. Never the less they were shy bites as it was still adjusting to the environment. So far it accepts well red algae from ocean nutrition and now it disputes them from the other tank mates. The idol occupies a central position in the tank from the very beginning and does nor fear or is intimidated by the other tank mates. In fact he is one of the very last if ever, to leave the premises for shelter at the back of the tank, so it behaves confidently.
I will carry on experimenting and let you know about the results.
I attach some photographs of both my tank two days ago and of the rocky beach were I collect seaweed, shrimps and the sponges as well as photographs of the sponge it self as I found it and prior collecting it and the facilities of the Marine Investigation Institute and public aquarium next to this beach (ELA â€"œ Estação Litoral da Aguda).
Aguda village is located some 15 km south to Porto city in Vila Nova de Gaia city.
I opened a topic similar to this one but starting with my experience in a Portuguese forum and it has stirred the interest and attention of many marine enthusiasts, reason for which and to better explain these enthusiasts about the sponge you found, I ask if you kindly grant me permission to show a copy of your sponge photographs stating obviously your ownership and source of it.
Another information Issued from Paul West, the Managing Director of Tropical Marine Centre in Chorleywood UK north of London city, states that Moorish Idols coming from Hawaii are less prone to present feeding problems and have a success rate of 90%, wile others coming from Indonesia, South Africa, etc, were this species is represented, present many adaptation problems and high failure rates.

Kind regards
Pedro Nuno

Sorry for the pictures quality but i'm not used with 50 KB limits.

 

[bskiba]

I would have to disagree with the 90% success rate on hawaii Mi's. maybe in public aquariums but if that were true. home hobbiest would have that one figured out. I think an MI with a 90% success rate would command a strong $ amount if they were available.

 

[KDodds]

Well, I'm at a 66% success rate so far and full expect that to go up to 80% once the ultimate four total MIs are in.

Oh, and FWIW, I've seen MIs at public aquariums that are equally as bad off as any that go into aquarists' tanks. I would attribute this not necessarily to tank size but to lack of "personal attention". When you've got that many fish, even in just a single tank, there's no way you really can observe each individual efficiently enough to make decisions for that one individual. As well, there are almost always water quality issues, despite all of the equipment, hence the many problems some aquariums have keeping reefs successfully.

 

[bskiba]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8004953#post8004953 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KDodds
Well, I'm at a 66% success rate so far and full expect that to go up to 80% once the ultimate four total MIs are in.

Oh, and FWIW, I've seen MIs at public aquariums that are equally as bad off as any that go into aquarists' tanks. I would attribute this not necessarily to tank size but to lack of "personal attention". When you've got that many fish, even in just a single tank, there's no way you really can observe each individual efficiently enough to make decisions for that one individual. As well, there are almost always water quality issues, despite all of the equipment, hence the many problems some aquariums have keeping reefs successfully.

That is really good. you are a rarity though. there are people that will buy one of these fish and put it in a 29 gallon with a skilter and penguin 330. Logic behind this will be these two filters are rated for at least three times the size of my tank(LOL). To me this is the same as a copperband butterfly.

 

[KDodds]

Well, the jury's out on that for me, whether or not I'm a "rarity". Yes, I would absolutely say that the system my Idols are in is not your usual system (450 Reef), even by fairly large tank standards. But, can you really say a species is unfit based on failures? What if successful aquarists' methods can produce results that are repeatable? Would it not then be fair to say that it's not the species but the means of keeping it? I still believe Idols are delicate, but maybe not as "impossible" as some would have you believe. Yeah, I screwed up big time with my first Idols a while back, and I don't count them because it was TOTALLY my fault (immature tank, unfamiliar equipment, temp spike into the high 80s low 90s, subsequent nitrite spike).

At this point, I'm more of the belief that MIs are more problematic because of shipping and holding concerns than keeping concerns. When they're healthy and feeding, if housed appropriately of course, they tend to stay healthy and feeding. But, when they're not feeding, when they've lost weight because ofit, it seems to me that they rarely make a turn-around. So, with MIs, there does not seem to be any getting off of a downward spiral.

And, yeah, I think you're right on the CBBs, as well as other species (Mandarins, LN Butterflies, etc.). From what I see in LFSs and hear from others, etc., it seems to me that Idols are not really all that far off in terms of failure/success. So why the clamor against Idols but the acceptance of Mandarins and CBBs?

 

[Paul B]

Pedro, nice pictures. I went collecting today on New York's Atlantic beaches. I mainly went for blue claw crabs (to eat) but I always bring back something for my tank. You can show my sponge pictures to anyone you like and I don't need credit for it. It is not important to me.
As for 66% and 90% success with moorish Idols, what does that mean exactly? If you are not keeping them over ten years the success rate is zero. A fish should live out it's normal life span which for a fish the size of a moorish Idol should be at least ten or twelve years.
Paul

 

[KDodds]

Absolutely true and agreed, hence my "so far" qualification. I'm pretty comfortable, based on my years of experience in the hobby, making the assessment that these fish will be with me for some time. How many years? Well, I don't know. I'm not even sure they do have 10 year lifespans. They may, or longer. I would, tho, say that 10 years for a marine fish of this size would be very generous. I'd say 5+ years is pretty good if the specimen was obtained as an adult, 10+ if it was a juvenile. But, some Angels and Tangs can go to 20 years or beyond. I think Idols might be capable of living just as long. I'll let you know in 20 years.

 

[Paul B]

Kieron, I agree about getting an adult Idol, there is no way to know how old it is. Of course I am guessing on the lifespan of them too. I am only judging on similar fish of that size like hippo tangs and french angels both of which I can't seem to get more than ten years from. I think ten years is not bad in a tank because as you know we are not feeding anywhere near normal foods or giving them any real sunlight. Even so with this limited lifespan they should die of an age related condition and not some obscure wasting disease which a lot of Idols succomb to.
I would imagine some tangs should live 20 years but I have no experience keeping them that long and since the hobby is only 36 years old and 36 years ago our knowledge was woefully inadaquate so I doubt any of them reached that age in a home aquarium. I know of no one who has ever kept a moorish Idol in a home aquarium for ten years. I hope someone has because it would give some kind of hope. Mine is only three and it shows no signs of illness but from experience I know that means little when dealing with these fish. Mine also does not look real nice. He has never regrown his dorsal streamer that was destroyed by a foxface. I still feed him sponge, banana, worms, avacado, pellets, mysis, clam, plankton and flakes soaked in vitamin "A". Of course he probably does not need this much diversity of diet but since he eats it all, what the heck. This is an experiment and so far it is working. If he does not live ten years I will consider it a failure and I will try something else.
As for mandarins, I find them the easiest, no maintenance, long lived fish. All you need is an old tank. I also find copperbands easy for a few years then they think they are a moorish Idol and drop dead for no apparent reason. I can't get ten years out of them either but the one I have now eats what the Idol eats (including the bananas) so maybe they will both surprise me.
:dance:
Paul

 

[bskiba]

I do agree that ten years is what you would want but to me after 5 years you have kept a mi. at ten it will have thrived in your aquarium. Paul even where you are currently at 2-3 years is very impressive. no 500 gallon tank or $10000 protein skimmer and you have been very successful. I think one of the big problems with these fish is they wholesale for $15. to cheap and easy to get. I will bet if it was a $500 fish the success rate would be higher as they would only go in quality systems.

 

[KDodds]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8005841#post8005841 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bskiba
I think one of the big problems with these fish is they wholesale for $15. to cheap and easy to get. I will bet if it was a $500 fish the success rate would be higher as they would only go in quality systems.

A VERY excellent point, and one I've been considering. I'd easily pay $100 for a MAC certified sub-adult or post larval juvenile that's already feeding well and well rounded.

 

[Paul B]

Brad, moorish idols are fairly common and they are a very beautiful fish which is too bad for them. They also do not come from the purest of water. They are very common in very shallow harbors in Tahiti and Hawaii. I saw very few of them in deep water. I am sure they are also easy to collect.
Paul

 

[TitoTee]

Something tells me that if many of you would feed your Idols New Life Spectrum you may have a better success rate at keeping them alive. I do not sell NLS but I have been talking about this food with so many people keeping dificult African Cichlids like Tropheus and the results are spectacular. The creator of NLS spectrum says all he feeds his Marine Fish is NLS. I know one person in here mentioned NLS but I haven't heard from others. I am going to buy about four of these guys and put them together and feed them NLS. My hunch is that I will be very successful at keeping them alive. I always marvel at these FORUMS with so much talk about keeping fish alive. This subject is universal in the fish world. I think it's all about the husbandry. Many people think they have the ideal tank - it's big, it's got an awesome filter - its got this it got that but that is not what I have discovered in keeping fish healthy. My secret. Here it is. Keep tank clean. Keep population down. Change water regularly. Feed healthy food fish eat and never polute your tank. Now - is that hard LOL

 

[KDodds]

4 Idols in a FO 75? You'll need a lot more than NLS to keep even one alive for more than a few weeks, I suspect. Good luck, you'll need it.

 

[TitoTee]

Thanks. These Idols are about 1.5". They'll grow out here. Are they supposed to kill themselves or something - let me know?