The myth of LED efficiency

+3 looks like a trolling / shilling thread to turn people away from a product or technology. I am sure a recommendation to another product is coming soon and it has to do with a MH product.

By the way, my corals are growing fabulously under leds, my power consumption is down over 50% from my halide setup, heat in my house is drastically reduced which saves on my cooling bills and the color of my sps & other corals is outstanding "except on certain ora corals which I could not color up under halides *LOL*" In short, going LED for my setup was one of the best decisions I have made for my tank.
 
mcallahan said:
Based on what fixture and what tank? For my 90G, I figure I'll need to spend AT LEAST $1500 to get a decent LED setup and I could probably sell my MH setup for $400 (best case) for a difference of $1100.

For a power savings of $50/mo (best case, I doubt I'd see that), that's a 22 month ROI.

Now for a small (30-40G), I agree, LEDs are a great investment.
Click to expand...

I hope That $1500 includes the tank! That's outrageous! I'm building an LED fixture for my 220g for around $700-800, for a 90g it'd be around $500. You may be able to buy a halide setup for $400 but then add in the chiller,bulb replacements for the next several years and higher electric bills. I think large tanks are great for leds. People are saying there's no long term results with LED, I wonder why? They've only just become popular in the last year or so. I think most people who say LEDs aren't as good as it seems, halides are the way to go, haven't really had any first hand experience with them. Also if your not afraid to get your hands a little dirty, a little DIY, that's one of the best things about this hobby, you can make LEDs a lot more cost efficient the halides. I agree, there's still some improvement to be had especially with the fixtures you buy (prices are outrageous) but in time I think they will prove to be better then halides, make them outdated like power compacts. Oh and people who say leds can't grow corals, ha that's hilarious, a simple search will change that tune. I'm never running anything other then LEDs from here on out until something better cones out, I think in tine everyone else Will see, just need people to continue to risk and think outside the box. ;)
 
ganjero said:
Like I said before the technology is not there yet, but it looks promising and definitely more efficient. My main problem with the OP is that he keeps referring to lumens (Again lumens have nothing to do with photosynthesis, but we how much light the human eye perceives). Also he is testing this on plants and comparing to 600w MHs which are rarely use in aquaria.

The reason coral farms don't use LEDs is simply because as a business they cannot take risks on a technology that hasn't been perfected for this hobby, that is just common business sense. ( BTW Pacific East Aquaculture started using LEDs for some applications)
Your statements are also not very well supported by data but rather seem like personal opinions. It would help you to post what kind of equipment did you use ( for MH as well as LEDs), for how long did you use any specific equip. Take PAR measurements or some type of measurements that has to do with photosynthesis(not lumens). If you are posting in this forum and arguing that LEDs are not efficient to grow coral perform your test on corals not plants. I would like to know what kind and brand of lenses, drivers, LEDs, etc did you use.

If I was to use LEDs right now I would use a DIY fixture that I can tweak, repair, a mix the colors that I really need.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that my main complaint is efficiency....take a look at the bottom of this article at the wattage needed to run these fixtures.
http://www.advanceda...10/5/aafeature2

The aquaillumination fixtures uses 75 watts and is a 12" x 12" square,this is the fixture that shows the best results when tested. Because of the small footprint of the directional LED lighting if I wanted to use this fixture to grow coral over a 150 gallon tank (2' x 6' long) I would need 12 of them for complete coverage of the tank, the same coverage that I would get from MH. Well added up this is 900 watts...that's more than a 1000 watt lamp!!! Ok lets say you only use 6 fixtures instead only placing them down the center of the tank, that's still 450 watts WHICH IS THE SAME POWER USAGE OF DUAL 250 WATT LAMPS! Where are the energy savings? If you think that 12 or even 6 of the LED fixtures don't make heat as much heat as MH that simply isn't true, remember wattage = heat. Now the big question is will 12 of these fixtures out perform a 1000 watt lamp? Will 6 of these out perform a dual 250 watt? Keep in mind that is just to be equal power usage, the advantage of LEDs is that they use LESS power for the same results. So if you think that (3) of these LED fixtures will out perform a dual 250 watt setup I think there is no way just b/c of the small foot print alone.
 
ohh and to buy a 6 light fixture the cost is $3,600 and of course 12 would be over $7k dollars. You could buy lots of electricity with the $6,000 you would save with (3) 400's MH instead....and you would be using the same amount of power.
 
Stephen,
You need to research this more.
I have 3 LED fixtures over my tank with 32 3 watt LEDs on each. They replaced 3 400w MHs, I have better growth now then I did with the MHs.
I am not sure why you would need 12 since the link does not work.
The LEDs cost me $1200 to make.
 
AngelAddict said:
I hope That $1500 includes the tank! That's outrageous! I'm building an LED fixture for my 220g for around $700-800, for a 90g it'd be around $500. You may be able to buy a halide setup for $400 but then add in the chiller,bulb replacements for the next several years and higher electric bills. I think large tanks are great for leds. People are saying there's no long term results with LED, I wonder why? They've only just become popular in the last year or so. I think most people who say LEDs aren't as good as it seems, halides are the way to go, haven't really had any first hand experience with them. Also if your not afraid to get your hands a little dirty, a little DIY, that's one of the best things about this hobby, you can make LEDs a lot more cost efficient the halides. I agree, there's still some improvement to be had especially with the fixtures you buy (prices are outrageous) but in time I think they will prove to be better then halides, make them outdated like power compacts. Oh and people who say leds can't grow corals, ha that's hilarious, a simple search will change that tune. I'm never running anything other then LEDs from here on out until something better cones out, I think in tine everyone else Will see, just need people to continue to risk and think outside the box. ;)
Click to expand...

I have 500W of MH and no chiller.

I agree that LEDs will be the way to go, but not yet. There is too much unknown with spectrum/which bulbs/what watt/which makers/which optics/etc...etc.. These issues will be worked out in time, but for now, its a guessing game.
 
jcolletteiii said:
I would like to see some details of the OP's 60,000lm, 800w fixture.

BTW, this thread attempting to trash LED's (when it appears the OP has no experience with the application of LED's to marine aquaria) does not have anything to do with the water-cooled MH aquarium fixtures that you are trying to develop, does it? You know, RC has a very harsh policy on shilling...
Click to expand...

I'm speaking about my experience with LEDs and the efficiency of them, I don't have to grow corals with LED's to know they aren't as efficient as MH. I'm not trying to sell you water-cooled lighting, again I'm talking about my experience with LEDs and not water-cooled lighting. Our systems are not geared for the average reef keeper so the sales to this market would be minimal and would not be worth me trying to promote them on this site anyway (besides the fact that I just wouldn't). LEDs are not enough competition for us to worry about losing sales too, they make up such a tiny part of the market. Sunlight Supply sells around 10k reflectors a month that are either used for MH or HPS lighting, so total LEDs sales are a drop in the bucket. I can tell you with all honesty, if I thought LEDs were the future we would sell them. You shouldn't judge my opinions about LEDs because I have a business related to lighting, I have bought more LED fixtures than probably anyone that has posted on this thread and have information about them that I wanted other to know.
 
Dude, quit while you're ahead. The quote below shows that you clearly have no experience with marine reef LED systems, and is absolute misinformation. For a 6 footer 150, you would need 6 AI modules TOPS... you would not even be able to fit 12 of them over a 6 foot tank - they'd be hanging over the sides, over the back - it would be absolutely crazy. So now, try again... 6 x 74 w = 444 - significantly less wattage than, say, 2 x 400 w halides. You also should understand, had you done your research, that most AI users run their fixtures at seriously reduced wattages, because the Cree XPG's are INSANELY bright.

Stephen Keen said:
The aquaillumination fixtures uses 75 watts and is a 12" x 12" square,this is the fixture that shows the best results when tested. Because of the small footprint of the directional LED lighting if I wanted to use this fixture to grow coral over a 150 gallon tank (2' x 6' long) I would need 12 of them for complete coverage of the tank, the same coverage that I would get from MH. Well added up this is 900 watts...that's more than a 1000 watt lamp!!! Ok lets say you only use 6 fixtures instead only placing them down the center of the tank, that's still 450 watts WHICH IS THE SAME POWER USAGE OF DUAL 250 WATT LAMPS! Where are the energy savings? If you think that 12 or even 6 of the LED fixtures don't make heat as much heat as MH that simply isn't true, remember wattage = heat. Now the big question is will 12 of these fixtures out perform a 1000 watt lamp? Will 6 of these out perform a dual 250 watt? Keep in mind that is just to be equal power usage, the advantage of LEDs is that they use LESS power for the same results. So if you think that (3) of these LED fixtures will out perform a dual 250 watt setup I think there is no way just b/c of the small foot print alone.
Click to expand...

[edit] Also, if you want to talk about efficiency, how about thermal transfer from halides to the water? Warm up a reef tank more than a few degrees above 82, and you'll have a tank of stressed out, or worse - dead, corals. Now, how you gonna cool it down - add a chiller. So now you have to undo the thermal work that the halides did on the water by active cooling, which also uses significant energy. Ok, here's where you can plug your water-cooled halides... :thumbdown
 
Last edited:
No one wants a reef tank, they are awful. I have beach front property for sale so you all can see the real thing. It's much better.

Anyone?

Hasn't this thread run it's course. I say this because the original poster has no info of lighting in relation to aquarium lighting.
 
I had the opportunity to watch a seminar on "Designing for LED Luminaire Reliablity" by electronic design (seminar is available there), Bergquist, and Digi-Key.
The slides referred to Luxean and CREE (maybe more) so I am assuming the information is universal.
They had achart
.........Incan...Fluor...MH...LED
Visible....8%.....21%....27%..15-25%
IR........73%.....37%....17%...~0%
UV.........0%......0%....19%...0%
Total..
Radiant...81%.....58%....63%..15-25%
Energy.
Heat......19%.....42%....37%..75-85%
If i read this right MH and LED produce the same amount of light per watt. But because LEDs are directional and the wavelength can controlled they can produce more PAR than MH as has been pointed out.

The interesting thing is they produce more heat than any other method. But as mentioned it is not IR heat hitting the water, but heat from electric loss that must be taken away. But since you are using few watts is it 50% then the heat may be comparable to MH.

Also the governmental goal is to have LED increase to the 50% point by 2012. I also don't know what generation LEDs this chart refers to. LEDs have increase 30% in the last year (XR-E -> XP-G).

I hope this help it at least add some solid numbers (if they are current and correct - nobody questioned them).
 
Something nobody is talking about here is that the LED's are dimableto create a true Dawn to dusk lighting for our tanks. When connected to a computer for a controller these lights can be set to offer cloudy days, changes in daylight hours every day due to the tilt and rotation of the earth, and even cloud banks passing over head. not to mention you can get a lunar cycle out of the same bulbs that do your daylights.
I feel that this is not only going to look awesome but is going to open up new doors for breeding fish that we have not been able to breed in captivity.
My thinking here is that some fish may not breed due to lunar cycles not being perfect like in the wild. the more we can replicate the earth the more we will find out about what we can really do with our tanks. and LEd's are going to lead us inot the future in that area.
Just in the last two years the technology has grown so much and the prices are coming down to where more and more reefers will get to try it and tweak it and these companies will only get better at giving us what we need to support our hobby.
 
LED's also just hit the 208 lumen per watt mark at a drive current of only 350mA - talk about efficient. Color temp sucks on that emitter right now (~5000k), but give them a few months...
 
Yes, I thought it was interesting in the article that the newer LED fixture used 1/2 the power but gave almost the same light spread or more. And 1/3 the power of the MH
 
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