The Sand Bed Debate

[VCoo71]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8997338#post8997338 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mskohl
Charlie,

I would like to hear your experiences and opinions of the BB. What would you consider pros and cons of each?

I have a SSB (~2" in most places) in the tank and 4-6" in the refugium. I like the way it looks and have had positive results - though short-term.
Thanks,
Stephanie

my lips are sealed!

but if you waht to start a real debate.......lets call it......the great ...

cannon/nikon/bb/dsb/zeo/prodibio/ultralith/t5halide/skimmerless/skimmer.......its never ending! and im sure i missed a lot! IMO thre a lotta diffrent ways to keep a healthy tank......to may opinions for me....im just trying to learn as much as possiable and will keep my "opinions" to myself

charlie

 

[captbunzo]

That would be a great debate, Charlie......


But seriously - I'd welcome your opinion on this topic so that we may have more balanced discussion. I know that you have great thoughts on these sorts of things and really would love to hear what you think!

 

[JR719]

Charlie.... Nikon all the way!

 

[OUBrook]

I also would like to hear all opinions.

A couple things:
Paul, you had said that seeding your tank is a great way to get bacteria, and I would have to agree. But I know you don't feel strongly with sharing sand. Any comment?

Not much was said about the toxic gases from DSBs...

And with buying sand such as the pavestone or playground sand, surely you're missing out on great things that come from ocean sand (even dried out)... And wouldn't there be incredible amounts of various minerals that aren't supposed to be in your tank? I mean, if sand's sand in marine aquariums, then sand's sand... but it just doesn't seem kosher to me to do that. Any input?

 

[Paul B]

I use dolomite. Any of you guys hear of it?

 

[jpitts101]

i know one reason people dont like to share sand is all the bugs/parasites that can be passed like red bug's, nudi's and little critters that people dont have and dont want in their systems.

 

[Serra]

You can buy sacks of "live sand" which I used once that worked well to help cycle a tank. I like using live rock to cycle a tank. I kept a BB tank back in the 80's and into the 90's. The bottom was painted black and usually had debris on it. The look didn't bother me.

I had low nitrates but I had a built-in denitrification unit on the tank and was religious about water changes. I won't make a judgement on my remote DSB for several years so that won't help this thread.

I have used playground sand in a FW aquarium and had a lot of algae problems in that tank.

 

[papagimp]

See what you started Brook!

Great job clarifying so much great information for us Paul T.

I also have to agree with all the votes against "live sand bags" being of any real use. I bought 80ish lbs of the stuff for my tank but I couldn't find "non-live" indopacific black, or I would have gone that route. Naturally I hate to spend lot's of money on sand just so I have a different color sandbed, but it's my tank and it's gotta be perfect!

Paul B. I've heard of dolomite, i'm sure most of us hear have at least heard of it. From what my 'source' at home (some crappy book I bought) says, it's pretty much like the Pavestone Pulverized Limestone. Although I think I saw something saying it's smoother than pulverized limestone but I may be wrong.

 

[jpitts101]

Adam, when you added your livesand did you wait a couple weeks before adding fish and coral? From my understanding on Ron Shimek's website about live sand it says you have to wait a few weeks to put anything in to get the benifits of live sand. it also said that most of the benifits of live sand you will never see but your coral and fish will. Benifits meaning life not just bacteria. there is supposed to be life in live sand that we cant see without a microscope. thats not saying its right, it was just my understanding.

 

[blackhemi35003]

I think the main toxic gas your looking for is Hydrogen sulfide Brook. Which comes from the bacterial breakdown of animal and human wastes. This is also found in alot of our fossil fuels. If I am thinking right if you have a DSB and is not properly maintained then you can get a buildup of this gas which can produce a black color to the sand and give you that "rotten egg" smell. This takes place at a lower level like what capt. said.

"The only real problem with a sand bed is the reduction in diversity as the bed ages. This is caused by extinction and replacement problems because the volume of our beds is simply too small for some species to generate self-sustaining populations. This is remedied, by purchasing a detritivore or recharge kit or two every year or so to give a boost to the fauna."

Dearest Mudder.... The Importance of Deep Sand.

By Ronald L. Shimek, Ph. D.

Initially Published in the March, 2001, Aquarium Fish Magazine

Revised, a bit, June, 2006

And me I just don't want to have to worry about this.

 

[blackhemi35003]

JP I added about 120 pounds of live sand and 180 pounds of live rock and I still waited about 3 weeks till I started adding animals. I only lost about 3 snails out of 30 or so. I also had second thoughts of putting live sand in. Is it really live or is it live with dead organisms that were once alive. I figured if I add it then thats my bacteria starter instead of spending money on fish.

 

[jpitts101]

thats true it is bacteria, but there have also been debates on if there were live organisms in it. someone need to get a scope and check it out. i've done 2 sandbed on 2 tanks and the one i did with live sand i like alot more and seems to be flourishing alot more but that could be due to many reasons like my coral/fish load, and i just quarenteen new fish there isnt always something in there so everything has time to multiply while in my main tank i have coral and fish eating all day/night long. in the link i posted earllier ron shimek did it and stated the live organism thing like i did. just my thoughts, it is a big debate!

 

[Paul B]

Paul B. I've heard of dolomite, i'm sure most of us hear have at least heard of it. From what my 'source' at home (some crappy book I bought) says, it's pretty much like the Pavestone Pulverized Limestone. Although I think I saw something saying it's smoother than pulverized limestone but I may be wrong.

Yep thats it, thats what I use. Looks like crushed coral.

 

[Serra]

In reading earlier mentioned article by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph D.,
I found this:
How can we check our own sand beds for infaunal population densities?

Hard to do.
I take about tube about 1 cm in diameter and remove a plug of sand. This I examine with a microscope.
You can remove about a cubic cm of sand with a turkey baster or some other such tool. Put it in a flat bottomed glass dish.
Cover with sea water and swirl to spread the sand out. Put it on piece of black paper. Let it stand for about 5 minutes with no disturbance.
Then shine a bright light on it and examine with a hand lens. You should find at least 4 or 5 worms in the sediments, you will be able to see them by the movement they cause in the sand.
Any less than 2 worms is not good news...

Going to try that.

 

[Serra]

On further searching I found this: How sand beds really work http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php
should be good reading.

 

[Paul B]

And here I am thinking I was the only jerk... I mean intelligent person with a magnifying glass looking at sand. :lol:

Paul
:dance:

 

[kpk]

This is a great thread! Lots of good info on sand beds etc.

Personally I don't have any huge reason why I am a barebottom follower I just have had great success with it. From zoanthids to sps, to somehow the infamous elegance. I have had terrible luck with sand, but as I have learned since then there was more reasons for my messy algaefied tank other than the sand.

Here's the story. I'm telling you at this point I had no clue that live rock could get over saturated (is that how you put it?) or even sand. You could say I was a newb for a few years (listening to much to the "old" lfs's, btw there are some great ones around now). Ok well here's the story. I had a neighbor that had this beautiful reef tank (mind you I was about 5-6 years old) down the street about 2 houses or so. I used to love to go over and see his anemone's etc. Anyways so time goes by and when I was at the end of my 8th grade summer I thought what the heck I'll get a tank so I did. Listened to everything AC had to say and got an emperor 400 etc. Ayways a few years later this neighbor out of nowhere calls me one day and asks if I want the tank, sand, lights, the whole setup. Of course I jumped right on it. This thing was nothing but nasty mess...algae, nasty sand, rock etc. I put the sand in another setup along with the rock and could never get rid of the algae. I ended up cooking the rock for about 4 months changing the water 1x per week. The cooking really seemed to rid the rock of a lot of the organics and was one nasty project. Anyways I thought I would try the "new thing" and go as "sterile" as possible. So I did and have loved it ever since (that was 2.5-3 years ago).

I know that wasn't a needed story for the thread, but gives you kind of an idea why I am the only guy on the forum that loves his barebottom tank. Now I will go a little further and say I believe 3000% that a dsb will work wonders on a tank that's why my current setup and later setups will have sand somewhere in the system if not in the main display. It has worked wonders on my current setup. Another reason I like barebottom is the capabilities of blowing the heck out of the bottoms to disturb detritus only and not sand.

If sand in your display is your bag have it, if not IMO of course, it should be incorporated into your filtration on some level where it be in your fuge of a RDSB. Hopefully on my new setup that 120lbs will get me 6-8" in the 75g fuge"?

Night all,
Kyle

 

[captbunzo]

Thank you for the great story and background, Kyle. I really think your views on this are extremely helpful and rather round out the perspectives on things very nicely.

Speaking of rock getting saturated, I have actually heard some experts suggest a theory of occasional disturbance to reef tank to avoid old tank system from becoming a problem. The basic idea is to once a year or so, replace a sizable chunk of live rock in the system (maybe 25% or so). Of course, the old rock perhaps is good for resale to other reefers, so that'd help recoup some cost (after all, a good swishing, cleaning, etc, will do wonders). But the new rock will help revitalize the tank.

At least that's the theory....

 

[Serra]

My first reef tank was BB. I would blow out the rocks with a small powerhead then vacuum the rocks and tank with a magnum filter. What a little Sussy Homemaker... in my tank...my house was a pit. Twice a year, I would take out half the rocks and give them salt water baths in the used water.

I kept corals alive for a long time but I had algae everywhere. Of course it was overstocked with too little filtration and water movement.

 

[FVernese]

Thanks for the good advice

Thanks for the good advice

Captbunzo, great summary on DSB's and I thank everyone else for the good info. It is very timely as my tanks arrive in two weeks (I hope) and I could not decide on DSB issue. Based on all your good advice I am thinking of 2 to 3 inches in main reef of aragonite sugar fine and 4 to 6 inches in the refugium (reef is 290gal and 80gal refug). I am thinking of coarser sand up to 2mm in refugium which would be better size for growing macro life. My only concern is the sugar fine sand blowing around in main tank with two Tunze 6100s and tank returns?

Thanks
Frank