Michigan Mike
Freedom costs a buckofive
#2 for sure, too much purpley/pink in #1
Even 3 blues & 1 coral for us who are used to a bluer look.
The T5 Q&a Thread - split
- Thread starter eagle9252
- Start date
Even 3 blues & 1 coral for us who are used to a bluer look.
TropTrea
New member
You relied to my last quote:
I never said that you did not know what you were saying. However with this post I now put you into the newbe catagory. I have 19 years experience working with one of the largest manufacturers of Florescent lighting in the world. Of that for 3 years I worked in lab looking at the various spectrums produced by various florescent bulbs. As far as the hobby is concerned my experience goes back to early 1960's before you were probably even born. In fresh water I was one of the first to experiment with lighting and fresh water tank. In the late 1990 I started shifting my experience and knowledge from fresh to salt water.
I have honored your opinion on a lot of issues with lighting. However I will tell you that even some of the experts with PhD in Marine biology have different opinions on lighting for corals. Add to this the fact that every individual has there own opinion on how a reef should look and which corals they wish to keep.
I point is that you have your personal taste in what you consider a balanced lighting system for your reef tank. I know from personal experience that most people tell me that my tanks look too too blue to them. If we go back right now your starting to recommend lighting that is considerably bluer than anything I ever had. Yes some people might like an aquarium with that much blue in it. However from personal experience there is big range in the personal taste of individuals.
My experience says the first thing you need to do is to make sure that your corals are getting adequate light at the right frequencies for them to florish. At the same time you do not want an excessive amount of light in the frequencies that have been proven to be detrimental to corals. Once you get this balance then you need to work on the balance needed to please your eye.
This pleasing to the eye is where we differ. mainlky because some individuals with an 8 bulb system might like a light with 2 GE-6500 bulbs, 4 Blue Plus Bulbs, and 2 445nm Atinic bulbs. Another individual may like the lighting of 1 Coral Plus, 1 Purple Plus, and 4 Blue Plus bulbs. These are both the extremes and either can work fine with some corals and not with others.
But the thing is if any of us profess to be the "experts" we need to inform people of there options. Have them start a mid point then later adjust to there eye.
I personly am not in favor of mixing the coral plus or aqua blue special as the sole source of full spectrum lighting. The coral plus bulb was designed as a stand alone bulb to be equal to 1 aquablue special, and one blue plus. While I used to run Aqua Blue Special I no longer run them because they are strong in the green spectrum and weak in the rest of the spectrum. I look at them as close to a blue plus and GE 6500 combination in one bulb. I also believe that a simple GE 6500 and blue plus combination is too strong in the yellows for most people, Therefore it ballances out better with a purple plus in the mix.
The atinic bulbs have been a devbate for many years. The old reef set up from the 1980 was simply mix an equal number of atinic 420nm and 10,000K bulbs. Then the higher K bulbs start comming about and people moved to a balance between the atinic and the 20,000K bulbs. But it soon was found that the higher wave lenghts were missing. Knoledgable people moved to 14,00K and even 10,000K bulbs with atinics. Later it was found that the lower K bulbs used with atinics lacked light in the 440 to 460 nm range that coral also needed. That is when ATI came out with the Blue Plus that initialy created a peak at 454 and 420 nm. This is where people started finally moving away from Matal Hides to T-5's, since they now had more control of there light.
I had seen the specto plots of various atinic bulbs. I will say that even different brands of atinics made at the same plant are not all the same. Some have a 420nm peak and very little light produced above 440nm. Others peak at 440 nm. Some peak at 420 but have a broad spectrum going as low as 370nm and as high as 460 nm. The diffences being the amount and the actual chemical comosition of phosperious material used in the manufacturing process.
Sorry RTparty but your last note just blew my stack. I honor your toughts but please keep in mind that anyone that does not agree with you 100% of the time is not an idiot.
I never said that you did not know what you were saying. However with this post I now put you into the newbe catagory. I have 19 years experience working with one of the largest manufacturers of Florescent lighting in the world. Of that for 3 years I worked in lab looking at the various spectrums produced by various florescent bulbs. As far as the hobby is concerned my experience goes back to early 1960's before you were probably even born. In fresh water I was one of the first to experiment with lighting and fresh water tank. In the late 1990 I started shifting my experience and knowledge from fresh to salt water.
I have honored your opinion on a lot of issues with lighting. However I will tell you that even some of the experts with PhD in Marine biology have different opinions on lighting for corals. Add to this the fact that every individual has there own opinion on how a reef should look and which corals they wish to keep.
I point is that you have your personal taste in what you consider a balanced lighting system for your reef tank. I know from personal experience that most people tell me that my tanks look too too blue to them. If we go back right now your starting to recommend lighting that is considerably bluer than anything I ever had. Yes some people might like an aquarium with that much blue in it. However from personal experience there is big range in the personal taste of individuals.
My experience says the first thing you need to do is to make sure that your corals are getting adequate light at the right frequencies for them to florish. At the same time you do not want an excessive amount of light in the frequencies that have been proven to be detrimental to corals. Once you get this balance then you need to work on the balance needed to please your eye.
This pleasing to the eye is where we differ. mainlky because some individuals with an 8 bulb system might like a light with 2 GE-6500 bulbs, 4 Blue Plus Bulbs, and 2 445nm Atinic bulbs. Another individual may like the lighting of 1 Coral Plus, 1 Purple Plus, and 4 Blue Plus bulbs. These are both the extremes and either can work fine with some corals and not with others.
But the thing is if any of us profess to be the "experts" we need to inform people of there options. Have them start a mid point then later adjust to there eye.
I personly am not in favor of mixing the coral plus or aqua blue special as the sole source of full spectrum lighting. The coral plus bulb was designed as a stand alone bulb to be equal to 1 aquablue special, and one blue plus. While I used to run Aqua Blue Special I no longer run them because they are strong in the green spectrum and weak in the rest of the spectrum. I look at them as close to a blue plus and GE 6500 combination in one bulb. I also believe that a simple GE 6500 and blue plus combination is too strong in the yellows for most people, Therefore it ballances out better with a purple plus in the mix.
The atinic bulbs have been a devbate for many years. The old reef set up from the 1980 was simply mix an equal number of atinic 420nm and 10,000K bulbs. Then the higher K bulbs start comming about and people moved to a balance between the atinic and the 20,000K bulbs. But it soon was found that the higher wave lenghts were missing. Knoledgable people moved to 14,00K and even 10,000K bulbs with atinics. Later it was found that the lower K bulbs used with atinics lacked light in the 440 to 460 nm range that coral also needed. That is when ATI came out with the Blue Plus that initialy created a peak at 454 and 420 nm. This is where people started finally moving away from Matal Hides to T-5's, since they now had more control of there light.
I had seen the specto plots of various atinic bulbs. I will say that even different brands of atinics made at the same plant are not all the same. Some have a 420nm peak and very little light produced above 440nm. Others peak at 440 nm. Some peak at 420 but have a broad spectrum going as low as 370nm and as high as 460 nm. The diffences being the amount and the actual chemical comosition of phosperious material used in the manufacturing process.
Sorry RTparty but your last note just blew my stack. I honor your toughts but please keep in mind that anyone that does not agree with you 100% of the time is not an idiot.
TropTrea
New member
using the 1st as a key starting point the second would have a little less aqua and greens in it but would would have more reds in the spectrum. My thoughts for 4 bulbs would be 1 Aqua Blue Special, 1 Purple Plus, and 2 Blue Plus. If you like something bluer than use the coral plus instead of the Aqua blue special, If you want it brighter than either two Aqua Blue specials or a single GE 6500. But in my mind a single GE 6,500 in a 4 bulb set up would be too much white.
Michigan Mike
Freedom costs a buckofive
1 aquablue S , 1 purple, & 2 blues is pretty much a 14k Phoenix, can't think of a closer combo without having athe GMAN & KZ lineup in front of me. Its a solid combo nonetheless.
Michigan Mike
Freedom costs a buckofive
I can't believe Grim did this for so long, I feel for him.
I don't know the history between Teatree & RTPARTY but I know you guys & myself (along with a couple others check up often) try to help. We will have a different point of view obviously but we should work together if we want to keep this thread & help people. I respect both of you guys & thank you for hanging in there!
I do believe the same questions get asked over & over & over again, if people would read the thread they would learn a bunch & it is kinda frustrating (bless you Grim). We all want instant gratification, but there is a lot of solid info in this thread.
The main combos are easy to find people, read the thread, its been covered a lot of times over & over again. Every once & awhile there's a twist but that is rare.
I get it we ask & want an answer but please -
If you ask what bulbs... Declare your fixture, tank, and preference of overall color- not what bulbs are best for my new fixture?- that doesn't give us info to recommend bulbs to your liking.
Any ATI,KZ,GIESSEMAN bulbs are great, ATI fixtures are best, hands down, ATI blue bulbs are as strong as full plectrum bulbs, actinics are violet (not blue) & can't grow coral for crap by themselves, they have very low PAR.
Cool your bulbs' cold spots (the side your bulb has its label saying ATI Aor whatever manufacturer) and buy a fixture that has at least 95% (more is better) reflective reflectors, program start ballasts, and cools the bulbs, not just removing excess heat...don't buy a fixture that comes with bulbs other than the ones I just said.
So props guys for helping out but this thread, it can make people insane, it is pretty much the definition of insanity, over & over gain.lol
Deep breath.lol
Okay I'm done...back to next bulb combo question...lol
I don't know the history between Teatree & RTPARTY but I know you guys & myself (along with a couple others check up often) try to help. We will have a different point of view obviously but we should work together if we want to keep this thread & help people. I respect both of you guys & thank you for hanging in there!
I do believe the same questions get asked over & over & over again, if people would read the thread they would learn a bunch & it is kinda frustrating (bless you Grim). We all want instant gratification, but there is a lot of solid info in this thread.
The main combos are easy to find people, read the thread, its been covered a lot of times over & over again. Every once & awhile there's a twist but that is rare.
I get it we ask & want an answer but please -
If you ask what bulbs... Declare your fixture, tank, and preference of overall color- not what bulbs are best for my new fixture?- that doesn't give us info to recommend bulbs to your liking.
Any ATI,KZ,GIESSEMAN bulbs are great, ATI fixtures are best, hands down, ATI blue bulbs are as strong as full plectrum bulbs, actinics are violet (not blue) & can't grow coral for crap by themselves, they have very low PAR.
Cool your bulbs' cold spots (the side your bulb has its label saying ATI Aor whatever manufacturer) and buy a fixture that has at least 95% (more is better) reflective reflectors, program start ballasts, and cools the bulbs, not just removing excess heat...don't buy a fixture that comes with bulbs other than the ones I just said.
So props guys for helping out but this thread, it can make people insane, it is pretty much the definition of insanity, over & over gain.lol
Deep breath.lol
Okay I'm done...back to next bulb combo question...lol
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Michigan Mike
Freedom costs a buckofive
rtparty
Raise The Reef!
This will be my final post for quite some time in here.
I don't care how long anyone has been doing this. This isn't an exact science. I worked in a lfs for about 6 months once and that is where I really messed around with combos and saw what they did in real life with real corals over extended periods of time. I don't trust manufacture plots at all. I also don't trust the meters we use for PAR most of the time. Most people have no idea how to test properly and skew results.
I only use data that I have collected over the years to help choose lighting for people. I can tell you right now I've received 100s upon 100s of PMs asking for help. Not a single person has ever complained to me about my recommendations. We've had to adjust little things here and there but nothing major.
My first and foremost recommendation is to go see some tanks in person. Nothing can replace that. Not a spectral plot, not an expert, and certainly not a recommendation over the internet.
For the majority of the last 52 months I've answered the same questions 1000s of times. I've never once said my way was the best or I had some holy grail to all of this. I just practice what I preach. My tank is surprisingly white with all bulbs on even though Dennis would tell you otherwise. We have no idea how much light is needed in each area. Literally, there is ZERO evidence of this. Every coral is different in this regard. One expert will say one thing and another will say something different. Then Dennis will add a third opinion while Mike and Ryan add opinions 4 and 5. Who's right? None of us are.
Mike, Dennis, the thread is all yours. Guide, misguide, lead and mislead as you see fit.
Sent from my Galaxy S3
I don't care how long anyone has been doing this. This isn't an exact science. I worked in a lfs for about 6 months once and that is where I really messed around with combos and saw what they did in real life with real corals over extended periods of time. I don't trust manufacture plots at all. I also don't trust the meters we use for PAR most of the time. Most people have no idea how to test properly and skew results.
I only use data that I have collected over the years to help choose lighting for people. I can tell you right now I've received 100s upon 100s of PMs asking for help. Not a single person has ever complained to me about my recommendations. We've had to adjust little things here and there but nothing major.
My first and foremost recommendation is to go see some tanks in person. Nothing can replace that. Not a spectral plot, not an expert, and certainly not a recommendation over the internet.
For the majority of the last 52 months I've answered the same questions 1000s of times. I've never once said my way was the best or I had some holy grail to all of this. I just practice what I preach. My tank is surprisingly white with all bulbs on even though Dennis would tell you otherwise. We have no idea how much light is needed in each area. Literally, there is ZERO evidence of this. Every coral is different in this regard. One expert will say one thing and another will say something different. Then Dennis will add a third opinion while Mike and Ryan add opinions 4 and 5. Who's right? None of us are.
Mike, Dennis, the thread is all yours. Guide, misguide, lead and mislead as you see fit.
Sent from my Galaxy S3
Michigan Mike
Freedom costs a buckofive
I'm gonna try & bring you back Ryan!
I'll get others to PM you everyday if I have to!
Lol
I'll get others to PM you everyday if I have to!
Lol
Isn't that the truth!
Bump
Skynyrd Fish
Member
Ryan Thanx for helping all of us. Mike you as well. And of course Grimm.
Could one of you get a sticky going for 4, 6, and 8, bulb fixtures. bulb combo's and k of the combo? I think most people could use this "chart" as a basic guide. Lets face it at $23 per bulb or more I know I don't like having extra's that are not being used. Im not sure how much work this would be. By the way I used your guidance and got a combo I like. Thnx again.
Could one of you get a sticky going for 4, 6, and 8, bulb fixtures. bulb combo's and k of the combo? I think most people could use this "chart" as a basic guide. Lets face it at $23 per bulb or more I know I don't like having extra's that are not being used. Im not sure how much work this would be. By the way I used your guidance and got a combo I like. Thnx again.
Great idea. I agree completely.
Michigan Mike
Freedom costs a buckofive
Post #2796 was for you & pprice01.
Its difficult to recommend more than one GE6500 in a 6 bulb fixture but maybe a couple aquablue specials instead.
I had a fellow reefer friend that had a 6 bulb Nova Pro & had GMAN middays, aquablue pluses, and actinic pluses (blue plus equivalent) and wanted a little more blue this time.
My first reco was to try the ge6500 but instead I reco'd 3 coral plus & 3 blue plus, he also didn't want any purple bulbs so it was quite different than my tastes. He really enjoyed it & I asked him yesterday on his thoughts about the combo & he still absolutely said it was perfect.
1 GE6500 or midday bulb will brighten up 4-6 bulb combo considerably. 2 GE & 4 blue plus combo would be very bright as well with a tiny bit of blue hint noticeable on the sandbed. Its hard to know exactly what you'll like, but we'll try & help.
Do you like purple in the combo?
Michigan Mike
Freedom costs a buckofive
This is Grim's website. Its a little dated but is a guide that is still very useful.
http://home.comcast.net/~stevelarsen00/site/?/page/Lamps_and_lamp_combinations/&PHPSESSID=c7704c861108bf0ffae440b269901e5a
http://home.comcast.net/~stevelarsen00/site/?/page/Lamps_and_lamp_combinations/&PHPSESSID=c7704c861108bf0ffae440b269901e5a
Michigan Mike
Freedom costs a buckofive
ATI bulb combo recommendations. Link @ bottom of the page- bulb recommendations.
http://atinorthamerica.com/faq.php
http://atinorthamerica.com/faq.php
Thanks. I did see that post. I know price thought we had similar situations, but I didn't see it that way. Sorry, I should have mentioned that. I don't intend to leave greens out of the picture, so I want to include that factor. Also, as I mentioned, my tank is seen from both sides, so I was hoping to get some feedback on bulb placement. Finally, I'd really like to stick with ATI bulbs since that's what fixture I have, and I've read such good things about that combo. I plan to read over Grimm's link you posted. I have looked over the ATI recommendations, but thought I'd check here too before purchasing.Thanks!
Michigan Mike
Freedom costs a buckofive
Okay I'm a bit more caught up to speed now.
Green corals love the GE6500 bulbs, the yellow, and red spectrums will make green corals pop big time, and the red spectrum helps the red-ish colors.
Such a subjective topic- lighting, don't be afraid of the GE6500, its great & cheap.
Either one GE bulb near the center of the fixture or 2 spread out in the fixture (like your dawn/dusk combo) and have 3 blue plus & 1 purple plus as your 4 bulb combo. Nevermind, Dimmable Sunpower, right? The only thing is this combo will have a slight purple hue to it, you may or may not like it.
Is the dawn/dusk look (blue) important to you? I know I don't even bother anymore, I just turn all the bulbs on/off @ once, but my tank is very blue all the time.
I do think 2 ge6500 & 4 blue plus would have a nice white look, very powerful also!
Not sure how the Sunpower will looked dimmed but a combo like this will look even from any angle you look at it from.
Back-
Blue
Ge6500
Blue
Blue/purple
Ge6500
Blue
Front-
If you really can't have the GE bulbs then aquablue special but they are more blue than the GE bulb, so look around and find a tank you would be happy copying.
Last edited:
JonnyD91
New member
I am way overdue for bulbs.
Current tank is primarily SPS.
ATI Sunpower 54W 6 bulb fixture.
Current configuration:
Front:
ATI Aquablue special
ATI Blue+
Ice Cap Deepwater 14,000K
KZ Fiji Purple
ATI Blue+
ATI Blue+
Back
Projected configuration:
Back:
ATI Blue+
ATI Blue+
ATI Coral+
ATI Purple+
ATI True Actinic or ATI Aquablue special ??? OR OTHER??
ATI Blue+
Front
The coral+, i think is about the same as the Ice Cap i have now.
I am just not sure of the 5th bulb. I like the close to 20k look, which is what i have now. What do i gain /lose getting an actinic over aquablue or should i get something totally different?
Current tank is primarily SPS.
ATI Sunpower 54W 6 bulb fixture.
Current configuration:
Front:
ATI Aquablue special
ATI Blue+
Ice Cap Deepwater 14,000K
KZ Fiji Purple
ATI Blue+
ATI Blue+
Back
Projected configuration:
Back:
ATI Blue+
ATI Blue+
ATI Coral+
ATI Purple+
ATI True Actinic or ATI Aquablue special ??? OR OTHER??
ATI Blue+
Front
The coral+, i think is about the same as the Ice Cap i have now.
I am just not sure of the 5th bulb. I like the close to 20k look, which is what i have now. What do i gain /lose getting an actinic over aquablue or should i get something totally different?
Michigan Mike
Freedom costs a buckofive
^ the aquablue will be white & wash out some color because it so strong, the actinic will give you much more color full corals but won't add much for PAR.
I would stay away from the aquablue special if you want a 20k look.
If you want PAR the coral plus gives you the best all around, PAR, blue/white/purple. Its 60% blue plus/30% aquablue special/10% purple plus. Great mix, won't wash out colors like aquablue will.
I would stay away from the aquablue special if you want a 20k look.
If you want PAR the coral plus gives you the best all around, PAR, blue/white/purple. Its 60% blue plus/30% aquablue special/10% purple plus. Great mix, won't wash out colors like aquablue will.
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