The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7469839#post7469839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by captbunzo
Low Alkalinity Cement
"Type 3 Portland Cement".
Anyone have any information about this? [/B]

Yeah, good luck finding any - grey may be easier to find than white, which I am using. I believe there is only one company in the US that makes it (white) for retail - Riverside or somesuch, and I called in a 200 mile radius (cement co's, hardware stores, feed and farm supplies, brick and block co's), and most didn't even know it existed. I ended up getting type1 here locally for $20 a #92.

Type 3 is be the best hands down, for the reasons you state.
But the others work, they just take a bit longer to cure, and may engender algae blooms in the onset..

 

[tbrennan]

It is a white portland cement and yes the cure time is shorter the problem comes in that most outlets do not carry it and the cost is little higher but not to bad. This is what GARF uses I have used both but usally jest use regular portland with a heavy sand mix. As long as you are changing water it goes quick I always used a brackish creek or 5o gal drums. I would make 10 or 20 peice a week so after a while had peices ready every week. Sold for a $1.00 lb branch rock a little more. It paid for my addiction of never comming out of a store empty handed.

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7469719#post7469719 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BigSkyBart


1) What ratio of DIY to real live rock, let's say I make 100# diy, how much real would I seed with?

I've read about tanks with 90% DIY, but I think most recommend something like 65-75% DIY with the rest live.

2) What is a reasonable time frame to expect to see coraline growth and coverage, min & max?
min = just noticable
max = full coverage

My last batch was cured, and then throw into the tank as the real live rock cured and tank cycled. But once the tank cycled, coralines started almost immediately, and in 4 months had 60-70% coverage...

JME
Hope this helps!

 

[Barto]

I was hoping that this would be feasable, at like 5/1 or even 10/1
IE 20# live to 100# DIY, or 10# live to 100# DIY (yea I'm cheap optomist)

I know coming in that this isn't a hobby for the overly budget consious (buy every little $$ savings helps) :lol:

Insane Reefer & captbunzo
Thanks for the input, glad to hear that yours covered up so quickly!

Yea, it's a nice little creek, talk about bad workplace conditions... I might have to call OSHA and report myself :lol:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7469903#post7469903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I've read about tanks with 90% DIY, but I think most recommend something like 65-75% DIY with the rest live.



My last batch was cured, and then throw into the tank as the real live rock cured and tank cycled. But once the tank cycled, coralines started almost immediately, and in 4 months had 60-70% coverage...

JME
Hope this helps!

 

[Reef_|<eeper]

Travis.....Do you have a more updated shot of your tank with your rock in it than the one on the first page?

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

Reef, not as of yet. I'm a little behind on my picture taking. Give me a couple weeks.

As for all the others, Yes type 3 cement would speed up the process, but the amount of time it would take to track it down would be the same as just getting type 1. In general, it's not really worth it unless you can get a special deal on it. Captbunzo, there is a place in Tulsa that does statuary that you can get it from. Jjmcat buys it from these people. For those that are wanting to know more about the in-tank side of things, as long as you have one piece of real live rock, then your rock will eventually be colonized. It's just a matter of time. The more real live rock you have, the quicker and more diverse your DIY Rock will be. FWIW, I have about 85% or so of DIY Rock. I only have about three or four pieces of real rock. And only one piece is large. What captbunzo stated in times is what happened with me. But your milage may vary because all tanks are different.

BigSkyBart (I believe you asked this on the other page) My first batch of Salt/Cement I hit it on the nose with strenght and porosity. I wouldn't recommend going over 4 parts of salt. In fact, 3:1 might actually be more acurate.

 

[scrager]

on the DIY to real LR ratio

garf, the place where most of this aragocrete started, uses 100% man made rock. it's not a matter of you need real live rock, but the real live rock will bring things into your tank like pods, worms, snails, crabs, coraline, etc.

basically the only things that will grow in your tank are the things that you put in there.

you can get all that life from other places than expensive live rock. trade some sand with a fellow reefer, get some macro algae out of someone's fuge, order some garf grunge, etc.

 

[captbunzo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7470528#post7470528 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis L. Stevens
BigSkyBart (I believe you asked this on the other page) My first batch of Salt/Cement I hit it on the nose with strenght and porosity. I wouldn't recommend going over 4 parts of salt. In fact, 3:1 might actually be more acurate.

Good golly - I love it when I really bork things up... I remembered reading 5:1 when I made my first batch over the weekend, so that's what I used. Now I clearly read back there 4:1. Whoops!!! At least it is all a worthwhile experiment. I'll have to see if the 5:1 stuff even holds together at all post curing...

 

[captbunzo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7470907#post7470907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scrager
garf, the place where most of this aragocrete started, uses 100% man made rock. it's not a matter of you need real live rock, but the real live rock will bring things into your tank like pods, worms, snails, crabs, coraline, etc.

you can get all that life from other places than expensive live rock. trade some sand with a fellow reefer, get some macro algae out of someone's fuge, order some garf grunge, etc.

DISCLAIMER: This is just my opinion. It might not mean much of anything...

Ok, now that that's out of the way.... I gotta SERIOUSLY disagree with this. While you CAN get a lot of "that life" from other plaes, some of it is not going to come from anywhere except live rock OR dead rock seeded by live rock. While I think DIY rock is yet another GREAT way to stretch your budget in this hobby, I don't think it is the end solution in itself. I think a tank is really MUCH better off with a couple pieces of live rock to really get thing going.

And live rock doesn't always have to be that expensive. Online from sources like DoctorsFosterSmith.com (and other places, I suspect) you can get it for prices down to $3.50 a pound. But my #1 suggestion for cheap dead rock? What I like to call "Recycled" Live Rock.

Find a local reef club. Hang out in their forum a while. Eventually someone will likely post a "I have a bunch of LR for sale" thread. In my area, at least (Oklahoma City), Recycled Live Rock goes for about $3 a pound.

AND!!! In my opinion, this live rock is usually MUCH BETTER rock then what you get out of a store or from an online vendor in that it is usually well seeded with life, has good coraline growth, often will have some corals on it, etc. Rock from a store or online has been shipped in the not to distant past across the world un-submersed. That process kills a lot of what you want to be bringing into your tank.

(The exception to this is, of course, expensive sources of rock that is shipped submersed - such as the famous Tampa Bay Saltwater...)

Another thing. When you pick up recycled rock, you can bring with all the saltwater filled containers that you like, avoiding as much dieoff as possible. This will reduce the "curing" time of recycled rock to almost nothing.

Phew - sorry - quite a soapbox there. Anyhow, there are ways to get rock for less then $5 - $6 - $7 a pound...

And lastly, while Garf DOES have lots of good informtion... They also have some ideas that fly in the face of modern marine science knowledge. And their grunge? I have none people who bought it and wished that they hadn't.

 

[scrager]

i was just saying that you don't have to buy expensive live rock (or even cheaper live rock which is still expensive...20 lbs at 3.50 a lb is $70) to have a successful tank.

if you have friends with established tanks, ask them if you can put a piece of your home made stuff in their tank for a few months to be seeded, then move it back to your tank to seed everything else.

my point was that it is possible to run a tank without getting any natural rock from the ocean. some people find value in running a tank without disturbing the ocean at all.

and like you said...mostly opinion.

one fact though is that you can have a successful and vibrant tank without any natural live rock.

 

[captbunzo]

I have finally uploaded some of my pics of my DIY Rock adventures, up until this point. First of all, let me direct you to a flickr photo set where I have posted 23 pics so far of my progress. I didn't want to include quite so many here, but wanted them to be available for anyone interested.

   All of my DIY Reef Rock Pics on Flickr

Otherwise here are some highlights...

DIY Reef Rock - Batch #1

See back a few pages for a greater description of this experience. In short, I used too much salt.... 5:1 salt:cement... Ooops. But I did learn some about the process.

Here is a pic of my work area. Felt strange to be working with cement inside my house & specifically in my dining room. However, it was the best place we could think of. The first batch involved some extra mess. By the second batch, however, we'd figured things out enough to avoid any extra mess.

Here is a pic of some rock made in a sand mold. Half of batch #1 was made in sand molds and the other half freeform on plastic sheet in piles of rock salt. We decided we didn't like either of these methods.

DIY Reef Rock - Batch #2

This batch went better for many reasons... We used more cement (3:1 ratio of salt:cement), we added more water to the cement mix, and we made a smaller pile of concrete mix. We also molded in bins of rock salt, using loose and clumped salt to form the cement. This worked extraordinarily well.

Here is a pic of the batch rocks a day after forming. In the future I will wait 2 full days to pull them as our impatience damaged some rocks that might have held together had they been let to set longer.

On the other hand, someone suggested that the best way to end up with the strongest cement was to let it cure for the first couple of days in high humidity and with some heat. He suggested leaving the fresh rocks in a covered container in the sun. That benefit might make it worth carefully pulling the rocks from the salt after day one and letting sit in the sun for a couple of days after that. I suspect most breakage could be avoided by less time spent looking at our new creations...

I'll have to think more about that possibility.

These next pics are some of the rocks from batch #2.

The last 2 pics are of the same rock. I was trying to show how we'd manage to add some nice three dimensionality to the rocks by building them in layers and adding salt around funny places along the way. It's hard to tell in some of the pics...but all of them have funny knobs, etc.

Yep, I'm proud of our rock. I say OUR as my wife REALLY got into it. She was finger deep in cement mixture just like me.

To Be Continued...

 

[captbunzo]

You can see in this next pic how the rock was buried in the salt.

Rock Curing Bins

As discussed on previous pages, I decided to cure these rocks with a automatic constant flow water change system. There are 3 parts to this.

a. Tubs for the rock to sit in

b. Source water fed to the system via an external spigot on our house. An adapter was attached to a Teed spigot that converted us down to 1/4 tubing. This tubing was ran to behind our garage. And then the tubing was Teed and fed into each tub after a valve.

c. Drain water left the tubs via a hole drilled mostly up in the tubs. A 1/2" uniseal is used as a bulkhead and the drain water is carried away from the tubs via some PVC piping. We didn't want to end up with the tubs sitting in a mud puddle.

Pic of the Entire System

Source Water Feed

Drain water PVC. The two tub drains first elbow down and then connect so that the water didn't end up running from one tub into the other if the ground was not quite level.

Last pic of the day - rock in the tubs.

Afterthoughts

First, we'll be monitoring these tubs pretty regularly to see what is happening to the pH. I might even try to find inexpensive Alk test to see what is happening to the Alkalinity on a regular basis. Or maybe not. Whatever data I do collect, I will post after the rock has finished curing. It should be relatively boring, me thinks.

Anyhow, I am hoping that the constant water chang system will get me to an optimal point in rock curing timeframe.

Second, there are two changes to my whole process that I plan to make at some point in the future.

Change #1 - use low alkalinity, Type 3 Portland Cement. If I can find it reasonably easily, I'll pay the extra $10 or whatever. For one thing, I'd just like to know what it does to the curing timeframe. I might even go as far as to make some identical rocks out of my current cement (which is labelled Type 1 and 2 Portland) and the Low Alk stuff, and then let them cure at the same time to see how they differ. Of course, if I am going to be REALLY scientific, I'll have to run an empty tub as a control.

Change #2 - Run a hose or something higher volume behind the garage to supply the curing tubs. The problem is that the 2 valves on the 1/4" line I have run back there form a sort of equilibrium as far as flow is concerned. MEANING that if I adjust the output of one, the other adjusts as well. This makes it a BIG PAIN to get the flow adjusted properly. Right now, do to this lack of precision, I am running more water then is probably necessary. I suspect Teeing these individually off of a main line would eliminate this problem.

Another thing about that. With a more well tuned valve system, I could test out curing times for different flow rates. As in test curing identical amounts of rock in three tubs with flow rates of 10g, 20g, and 30g per day. Just for kicks and grins to see if it matters. Because after all, you'd want to use as little water as possible.

 

[scrager]

put a single valve before the T to the tubs and you can control equal flow to both tubs with one valve.

 

[captbunzo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7472846#post7472846 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scrager
put a single valve before the T to the tubs and you can control equal flow to both tubs with one valve.

I tried that. Unfortunately, the tubs are at slightly different heights, the tubes going to the tubs are a little different in length, etc. For some reason, I don't get equal drips in each tub.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Captbunzo.
I'm concerned about the use of salt as your mold form - salt as we know has a drying effect, hence it is probably wicking the moisture from your rocks, and thus you have rocks breaking...
Seriously, either see if you can find crushed coral or use oyster shell - both can be "brushed" off afterward, mostly, and your rocks will have their moisture longer, making MUCH harder rocks.

And on a different note, I took my test piece in to the LFS, and the owner has commisioned me to make him 100lbs - if he likes it, he says he can keep me busy making the stuff until I get tired of making it, lol - I'm going to get trade on this stuff!!! And he agreed to cure not only his, but mine in store!
Oh, and he is giving me as much used crushed coral as I can use - no oyster shell for me - already brought two five gal buckets of the stuff home Makes Awesome mold material, as well as using it half and half with the salt for more solid rocks. I have 3 rocks ready for him - this type one white cement sets fast, tomorrow I will unmold them and see if he is still pleased and still wants to do this.
I may actually pay for my hobby this way!
I am SO stoked!!!!

 

[captbunzo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7473937#post7473937 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I'm concerned about the use of salt as your mold form - salt as we know has a drying effect, hence it is probably wicking the moisture from your rocks, and thus you have rocks breaking...
Seriously, either see if you can find crushed coral or use oyster shell - both can be "brushed" off afterward, mostly, and your rocks will have their moisture longer, making MUCH harder rocks.

Darn! I really like using something as my molding form that will dissolve completely away in the curing process. as I didn't want the surface to be mottled with crushed coral or something. Maybe that is a silly concern. The rock salt was also so easy to work with. However, I suspect that rock salt and crushed coral will work similarly. I happen to have some crushed coral left around here and might try that with my next batch.

One detail I left out was that during the intial 2 day drying process, after the first day, I flipped the pieces on a regular basis and misted them with water. Don't know if that would overcome the damage done due to any water wicked away during the first day.

Another thought - crushed coral would work well with the high humidity concept suggested by someone a couple pages back. Put a half inch of water in the bottom of the tub, add 2 inches of crushed coral, mold up your rocks, and then add a lid and go stick it in the sun.

About the high humidity method of curing cement - anyone know if the rocks need to set for a certain period of time first? Or can I start that right away?

 

[Insane Reefer]

Mold them in the rubbermaid, and put the lid on - wait 24 to 48 hours and presto - if your mix was good, you'll have really tough rocks.

You'll notice concrete workers spraying newly laid cement after about 8 hours, to help the moisture stay in longer...

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

Truthfully, I hate to be a party pooper. I have really learned alot about cement, don't get me wrong. Thanks for all that contributed. But I really think that we are reading way too much into this. Unless you plan on sitting a house on top of your new DIY Rocks, what is the point of proper curing for strength? As long as you aren't critically jeopordizing the rock's integral strength, it should be fine. After all, only the largest tanks would need that when one rock has over 500lbs of other rock on it. The salt molding seems to be a perfect method for me so far. It became solid just as quick as any other rock that I've done. We have to remember this rock is going into aquariums that are most likely 250g or less. Even with 2lbs/gallon, there will be no one rock with over 500lbs on top of it. Heck, the average aquarium is a 75g. Once again, no one rock will have over 150lbs on it.

 

[captbunzo]

Thank you for the perspective, Travis!

Btw, Trav, I was talking to Chris last night and found out he has some unused low alk cement. He is going to bring it to me this Friday along with a bin of acrylic shavings.

I am going to try some rock this weekend with about a 3:1:1 ratio of salt, cement, shavings. Or something... I think that the acrylic shavings would add some decent strength to the concrete during the first 48 hours, helping to avoid extra breakage. I suspect in the long run, added strength is outdone by the strength of the concrete itself.

Heck, I might even throw a little crushed coral in - I have some extra around here.

This is fun. Any other suggestions for something to try this weekend with Batch #3?

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7476058#post7476058 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by captbunzo
Thank you for the perspective, Travis!

Btw, Trav, I was talking to Chris last night and found out he has some unused low alk cement. He is going to bring it to me this Friday along with a bin of acrylic shavings.

I am going to try some rock this weekend with about a 3:1:1 ratio of salt, cement, shavings. Or something... I think that the acrylic shavings would add some decent strength to the concrete during the first 48 hours, helping to avoid extra breakage. I suspect in the long run, added strength is outdone by the strength of the concrete itself.

Heck, I might even throw a little crushed coral in - I have some extra around here.

This is fun. Any other suggestions for something to try this weekend with Batch #3?

If you're willing, do a little experiment for me. Make some Type one rock and some Type 3 rock. Use the same ratios, but just use different cement. While curing, keep a detailed journal. Then we can find out first hand exactly how much better Type 3 might be. Also, I'm glad everyone has taken such a great interest in using rock salt. And for the most part, all the variations of the DIY Rock recipes out there, it's all a matter of personal preference. Personally, I feel that the use of any texturized ingredient such as sand, shavings, crushed shell, etc will only jeopordize the rock's actual ability to hold bacteria deep inside it along with decreasing strength. Mathematically, there is a max ratio somewhere out there that we haven't found yet. Let's just say the max ratio is 6. Of those six, let's say 2 has to be cement. That means the other four can be anything you want, and you will still get the largest portion of strength. So far, I have a feeling anywhere from 4-5 with at least one of those being cement will yield the best results. So, in my case of just salt/cement, depending on what I want the rock for, a ratio of either 1:3, 1:1, 3:1, 1:4, 3:2, 2:3, or 4:1 would yield the best results.

Personally, I like using just rock salt. The other texture fillers are really sharp. I've cut my self numerous times attempt to arrange my rockwork. And if you knew what I did about marine parasites and pathogens, that's the last thing that you would want to happen Plus, the salt close to the outside melts away creating indentions instead of protrusions like texture fillers do. The absence of salt on the outside of cured rock makes the rock rather smooth. It hasn't been proven, but anectdotally it has been said that encrusting corals and coralline algae grow quicker on smoother surfaces. While this is not a basis that I made my rock for, it would sure be a bonus if that holds true.