The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

Status
Not open for further replies.
If you want the silica sand as a mold, but you don't want it to stick to the surface of your rock, mix it with molasses and oatmeal. Stire in just enough to give the sand a mudlike consistency. You will get tremendous detail for your sand mold, and all the sand will wash off later.
 
As far as molding goes, my preferred method is to lay it on something flat with no salt or sand or anything, and let it dry there. Then when its hard, flip it over and pile the mixture on the flat side, covering all flat spots. I do this on styrofoam- the lids to the boxes that live stuff is packed in works great, and that way all the jagged spots aren't broken off after the flip.

I also make pillars by piling it up tall, letting it dry, then adding more and more. When I achieve the correct height, I let it dry and set it on its side and add branches and stuff where I want them. The flat spot on the bottom creates channels in between the salt grains where stuff can crawl or slither. But gives it enough stability where I don't worry about it falling over or creating a rock slide.

Sometimes I have also just used plain portland and a little sand to cement two larger pieces together.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9463777#post9463777 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis L. Stevens
Don't be surprised if you get diatoms coverting the rocks where some of the quartz is stuck to the outside.

I've only had 2 pieces of rock that didn't "diatom up" the next day of putting it in, and those 2 rocks were under a pile and got no light.
125181rockclose.jpg

This is a closeup of the backwall from a week or so after I put it in - diatoms are starting to die off and green is replacing it. I've had little algae growth on anything, so this isn't a bad husbandry thing - it is the rock.

I'm almost 90% sure that diatom on these rocks mostly occurs when light is present during the first week. After that, whatever it is the diatoms like goes away (or is consumed) and no diatom growth there-after.
 
Agreed. The diatom growth will increase as it "catches up" to the amount of silica being released into the system and will eventually calm down as the population levels out. Eventually the silica will be used and the diatoms will disappear.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9464599#post9464599 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
If you want the silica sand as a mold, but you don't want it to stick to the surface of your rock, mix it with molasses and oatmeal. Stire in just enough to give the sand a mudlike consistency. You will get tremendous detail for your sand mold, and all the sand will wash off later.

When last you posted your release methods, I wondered how exactly it was accomplished. Thanks for the clearing up of that.
I think I will try this for a small batch for my nano, but for commercial endeavors, I can't use anything that might draw bugs - I have bins (recycled cattle mineral tubs) that have mold material in them and I reuse and reuse.

If I just wanted to go the flour/oatmeal only route, without molasses, how would that be implemented? Ratios, and mixing?

Also, has anyone tried oil (food type) and sand, instead of water and sand for molding material? Wonder if the oil would make mold sand release?
 
Has anyone tried curing the DIY rock in the ocean? I see lots of tak about lakes, streams and tubs, what about tossing it into a bay and leaving it there 8 weeks?

I have a buddy with a dock in his back yard, I am thinking that would be a great place to let it cure.

once cured in the ocean I would then toss it in a light less barrel for a few weeks to kill off anything that I did not want on the rock.

What ya think?
 
I want to know too, I live in Tampa and could easily do that, War Daddy, Maybe we could to a project together? I live out in Fish Hawk Ranch in Lithia,
 
As far as I know, you'll only prolong the Kuring. The pH of the ocean is 8.3-ish. In order for the chemicals to leach out, it will need the lower pH. Theoretically, if your fresh water is 7.0 pH it will further speed the process until the water reaches the saturation point of how many chemicals it can hold. Basically, it could be done in the ocean, but it might take longer.
 
None the less we could make a bunch of rock, get ideas from other "rock builders" for structure and what not. This could be fun. Are there any master rock builders in our area, that we could call on their services?
 
Hey Travis - wanna start a guild like the carpenters have?

I think to have "master rock builders", would have to mean that there are guilds and unions, lol. To my knowledge no such organization exists.
And yes, I know you were sort of being silly - so am I ;)

Next best thing to a master rock builder would be to find someone who is producing commercially (even if on a small scale).

I'd post that in your local club forum, and also ask at the LFS - if such a creature exists, the LFS's would probably know.

But it isn't like setting permissions in Windows - even children can make pretty nice rocks the first time; you two will be fine on your own...

Post pics if you do - this might be fun to see :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9472852#post9472852 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis L. Stevens
As far as I know, you'll only prolong the Kuring. The pH of the ocean is 8.3-ish. In order for the chemicals to leach out, it will need the lower pH.

No quite sure I agree, but haven't had enough coffee to say exactly why.

My thoughts are that since we are shooting for a pH of anywhere between 8.0-8.6; the ocean is sitting at the mean, and there is such a vast quantity of water and such vigorous water action that the water isn't likely to become saturated before being replaced by different water.
"Dilution is the solution to pollution", would be apt in this instance.

I think it would be fine, however make sure you have a way to keep the rock from being swept away. One good storm can really rearrange the ocean floor - don't want to donate to the reefs now, do you?
:D
 
I would think that Sea Water or fresh would work fine. It seems to me that the water, regardless of pH is helping to speed up the chemical reaction and removing the chemicals that are increasing the pH

How ever it works, I have to ake rock and let it "dry cure" before I have to worry about water curing :-)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9473792#post9473792 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WarDaddy
...is helping to speed up the chemical reaction and removing the chemicals that are increasing the pH

Incorrect on the first, but correct on the second.

There is no way to "speed up" the chemical reactions happening in the cement - they just happen, and continue to happen. You also can't suddenly stop this reaction either - at best you can temporarily neutralize it.

But the more water you push through your rock, the more of the nasty stuff is removed as it is produced until such time as what it produces doesn't affect pH unduly.
 
I agree with Travis on the surface of his comment about PH but Ithink that the pure volumeof the water that you are soaking the rock in when using natural water bodies will more than make up for the higher PH. Just my 2 cents
 
Insane Reefer, I would tend to agree with you about the "flow" over the rocks. I think that Kuring in seawater is perfectly acceptable and would do just fine, but I wouldn't be surprised if it took slightly longer (by a week or two maybe) to finish Kuring. Okay.....here is my thought process... be prepared for LONG post.... (to be continued)
 
First, I want to say that all my theories are based on high school chemistry, and I'm in no way considered an expert chemist. This is how I understand this, and what my logical opinion in what happens with the DIY Rock during Kuring.....

__________________________________
My Thoughts, Opinions, and Theories on the DIY Rock Kuring Process
First, there are two parts to Kuring rock. The solution that the rock is being Kured in, and the composition of the rock itself. One, the rock itself, is a constant factor. The water is the variable. We know that the rock itself when placed in the Kuring vat will leach out a chemical and cause the pH to rise to 11-12 and begin to drop as it comes out of the rock. I don't know what this chemical is, but I assume that it is either Carbonate or Calcium based. I'll call it "Chemical X". The process to me is similar to Calcium Hydroxide (AKA Limewater). Now, we have the variables with water. Let's look at some of the things that we know about H20:

1) Pure water is considered the universal solvent. With time, water can dissolve anything.
2) Any solvent has a saturation point. Once the solvent reaches the saturation point, it stops dissolving the solute. Yes, you can do stuff to make a solven super-saturate, but I don't know how in our case.
3) pH determines the strength of the acid/base. In our case, the pH of the solvent increases to make it more base. The higher the number, the more "Chemical X" is in the solution; the higher the concentration Chemical X in the solution, the closer it reaches the Saturation Point; and the closer it gets to the Saturation Point the less of Chemical X can leach out into the solution. Thus slowing the Kuring process down.
4) pH also determines how the solute dissolves. The larger the difference in the pH of the two items, the faster it dissolves. Thus, something like Bleach and Battery Acid will (extremely) quickly form a chemical reaction. But something like Water and Milk will take a long time for the chemical reactions to take place.

With all that being said, I'll then compare Seawater and Pure Water. Seawater has a pH of about 8.3 and also is already filled with other chemicals, so there will be less room for Chemical X to fit in. Thus, it will leach Chemical X slower at first. Eventually, it wouldn't matter if which water the rock is placed in as Chemical X reaches maximum concentrations, the amount that leaches slows down. So, now we have a problem with reducing the amount of Chemical X that is in the solution. Thus, water changes are the best bet. Now the choice of a body of moving water, or manually changing them in vats is a personal choice. It would seem that moving water would have the best, immediate benefit. But there are ways to speed up the dissolving of a solute. There are three common ways of speeding up the process; heat, aggitation, and particle size. We can easily control two of those in a vat, but not in the ocean. In a container, we can add a heater for heat and a powerhead for aggitation. We can't control the particle size of the solute, but the solute dissolves as water penetrates the rock. So, the thicker the rock, the longer it takes for it to Kure.

With all that said, this is my advice to all that do DIY Rock without a body of water:
--Use the purest water with the lowest pH.
--Change the water as often as possible. Changing the water as often as once or twice a day, or even when the pH reaches a predetermined amount (IE change it when it reaches 9.0)
--Add a heater for heat and a powerhead for aggitation
--Keep your rocks small to Kure faster. If you want a larger rock, cement or epoxy them together after Kuring.

***NOTE***
Once again, I could be COMPLETELY WRONG on this. This is why it is my opinion/theory. If I am wrong, please help me correct this. If you know what Chemical X is, please let us all know.
 
quick search I found this...
From: http://www.lmcc.com/news/summer2006/summer2006-06.asp


Cement chemistry revisited
To better understand these products we must gain an understanding of some of the basic principles of portland cement chemistry. There are many chemical compounds in dry portland cement, but two of the most significant ones are tricalcium silicate (C3S) and dicalcium silicate (C2S).

The first compound, C3S, reacts as soon as water comes into contact with cement, and continues reacting (hydrating) for the first 3 days or so. About 7 days after the concrete has been placed, the C2S starts to react and continues for many months thereafter. When the concrete is 28 days old, about 95% of the hydration has taken place. (See Linda Hill's excellent article on cement hydration in Concrete News, Summer 2005). The hydration of these two compounds produces the same primary reaction product-namely, calcium silicate hydrate (C-S-H). It is C-S-H that bonds with the small and large aggregates to form concrete.

How does C-S-H form? When water comes into contact with cement the C3S compound releases large amounts of calcium ions and hydroxide ions. Also released are large amounts of silica, specifically SiO2. With the release of hydroxide ions the pH of the concrete rapidly increases from basically neutral to very alkaline pH of 12 to 13 (on a scale of 1 to 14). In this very alkaline environment calcium ions react with hydroxide ions to form calcium hydroxide. Calcium hydroxide then reacts with the SiO2 to form the main cementing material, C-S-H.

We know this about calcium hydroxide: it has a very high pH; it is soluble in water; and it has very little ability to bond aggregates together. After curing for 28 days, 15% to 20% of the hydrated portland cement paste is calcium hydroxide. Therefore, there is large amount of calcium hydroxide normally available that can be converted to C-S-H. All that is needed to make this happen is a source of silica.

Understanding this property of cement, consider that it is a now common practice to add fly ash (a byproduct of burning coal that is rich in silica) to concrete mixes for this purpose. The silica in fly ash reacts with the calcium hydroxide in the cement paste and produces C-S-H, thereby increasing the strength of the concrete. For more information on Fly Ash and its effect with C-S-H see 5 Minute Classroom in this issue).


Now to find out about how leaving cement in water will effect the process... I wonder if you took a piece of our rock an let it in the sun for 8 weeks and took a piece fro the same batch and left in in water for 8 weeks and then put both in a control of distilled water for a week, would the pH of the water be any different in the 2 containers?

The article above seems to say that the curing is happening... what we need is time. *off to research more*
 
I'll agree there, and that right there solves exactly what Chemical X is that I was talking about. I've always assumed this is what it was but couldn't prove it. What causes the pH of the solution to rise in the Kuring container is Calcium Hydroxide. That's the same thing as Limewater. So, there might be some validity in using not-so-completely Kured DIY Rock as a Calcium/Alkalinity supplement. Obviously we wouldn't want to put a 10lb block of Kalkwasser in a 50g tank, nor would we want to add a 10lb rock in the same tank. So, I would like to figure out the ratio of rock per total water volume per pH level in order to add CaOH to a tank in order to keep levels elevated.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top