Insane Reefer
New member
LOL!
I've been singing the praises for white portland for almost a year now - of course if exists.
Granted, I am insane, but the white does exist.
I was just busting your chops, Goldmaniac.
The Ultimate DIY Rocks!
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LOL!
I've been singing the praises for white portland for almost a year now - of course if exists.
Granted, I am insane, but the white does exist.
I was just busting your chops, Goldmaniac.
grannybj
New member
IR...I read your links and found them interesting. While I have no scientific background and sometimes get lost in all the formulas , I still get the point of thier study. I know that my clays I use are different from what they are using. I did a little search of my own and it seems to me that what they are using is a clay they actually make and that clay will withstand tempratures much higher than the clay I use. I buy my clay already mixed and ready to pour. A few years back I did do some looking into the salt firing but when I read about the gases corroding the kiln parts, I dropped the idea. I know my clay corrodes the kiln too but not at the rate that salt firing would . Plus the salt itself makes a mess in the kiln . I have 3 kilns and I thought about just jumping in and dedicating one kiln for just salt use and about that time one of the other kilns brokedown . So I decided that I best stay with what I have so I would have backup kilns should one go down. During my heavy season I need all three functional.
Remember in one of the last posts I posted that my initial (and hottest) firing was to a temprature 04 (1947 degrees) ..in the article you linked, the author stated he was firing to a straight 8 (2300 degrees) . He is also making his own glazes which can take a hotter temprature than what I use. My kilns are all capable of doing what he does but I have never tried it . There are problems with keeping my slip from getting contaminated with other clay formulas and vice versa. My slip would ruin thier outcome as thier formula would ruin mine. Thier clay has to be fired to that hotter temprature to mature and mine would simply turn into flowing lava at that temp.
I know when I am firing , I sometimes have to leave the shop because of the fumes released, depending on the density of the load. Light loads are easier to tolerate. Plus some glazes are very toxic when fired and I have to ventilate the shop more than usual and leave. When you posted that you were having a reaction from the steam I knew what you meant.
I do think overall you will find that baking the rock did speed the process of curing but I am curious if it was enough to be worth it so I will be waiting on your PH findings ..that will be the definative answer.
Remember in one of the last posts I posted that my initial (and hottest) firing was to a temprature 04 (1947 degrees) ..in the article you linked, the author stated he was firing to a straight 8 (2300 degrees) . He is also making his own glazes which can take a hotter temprature than what I use. My kilns are all capable of doing what he does but I have never tried it . There are problems with keeping my slip from getting contaminated with other clay formulas and vice versa. My slip would ruin thier outcome as thier formula would ruin mine. Thier clay has to be fired to that hotter temprature to mature and mine would simply turn into flowing lava at that temp.
I know when I am firing , I sometimes have to leave the shop because of the fumes released, depending on the density of the load. Light loads are easier to tolerate. Plus some glazes are very toxic when fired and I have to ventilate the shop more than usual and leave. When you posted that you were having a reaction from the steam I knew what you meant.
I do think overall you will find that baking the rock did speed the process of curing but I am curious if it was enough to be worth it so I will be waiting on your PH findings ..that will be the definative answer.
goldmaniac
New member
IR:
there's just so much info on this thread, I didn't recall anyone specific who was using the white portland. I did read this entire thread, but once is enough, i'm just trying to stay current with recent posts!!
I've found that any refugium sand that gets replaced works nicely as part of this mix. I just rinse it out as much as possible to get rid of detrius and salt, and it's a nice addition
Travis's salt ratio,
I add a little sand,
and now your white portland cement
I think the recipe I'm going with is complete!
G.
there's just so much info on this thread, I didn't recall anyone specific who was using the white portland. I did read this entire thread, but once is enough, i'm just trying to stay current with recent posts!!
I've found that any refugium sand that gets replaced works nicely as part of this mix. I just rinse it out as much as possible to get rid of detrius and salt, and it's a nice addition
Travis's salt ratio,
I add a little sand,
and now your white portland cement
I think the recipe I'm going with is complete!
G.
Insane Reefer
New member
Hey GrannyBJ. I did some more reading last night (this morning?) and am fairly confident that the low temp of 400°F-ish isn't going to release anything harmful, or at least not harmful if you don't hang out in it for hours, lol. Actually, I was talking to a friend this morning, and I found the perfect way to describe the fumes sensation. If you have ever flown into Newark or LAX, and you get outside, there is this slight burn - these fumes are pretty much like what you feel getting off the plane. But as those who've travel know - in half an hour you are used to it and don't notice it anymore. If people can live in LA or NY, I think I can live with hot, wet stone smell, and fumes that sort of sting - especially if it really does make any sort of difference.
But news from last nights firing. My pyrex baking pan blew up in the oven last night
Nothing bad happened other than having to hand mop under the stove and pick hot glass out of the oven. The oven and the rock were fine. I went with even greener rock this time - just 24 hours old. I had to be really careful removing them from the sand, but got them out whole. This rock might not be quite as solid as the last batch, but then this is from a different batch mixing too - so that could account for seeming differences.
I'll tell you what. I've made a lot of rock. I have never seen the concentration of C-S-H come pouring out of my rock from moment one. It really whooshes out, and so far I haven't gotten "clean" water yet. Normally there is a point after releasing the salt that not much C-S-H is evident and the water stays fairly clear, and then several days later it starts to cloud up pretty good. My water looks like chalk water even after several flushes. I'm hoping this is a good sign - that the C-S-H will readily flush out and leave kured rock after a week or two. I do think that the pH is going to be high, for the next few flushings, but have high hopes that once the "loose" C-S-H is flushed out, the rock will register a much lower pH - maybe low enough to be ready.
That would Rock!
And that's ok, Goldmaniac - I forgive you.
Post where you end up finding your white cement, if you would, please. That goes for all of you that use the white portland, and what brand you use. I'm compiling a list for future reference as to where what can be purchased.
Got to go - busy day!
But news from last nights firing. My pyrex baking pan blew up in the oven last night
Nothing bad happened other than having to hand mop under the stove and pick hot glass out of the oven. The oven and the rock were fine. I went with even greener rock this time - just 24 hours old. I had to be really careful removing them from the sand, but got them out whole. This rock might not be quite as solid as the last batch, but then this is from a different batch mixing too - so that could account for seeming differences.
I'll tell you what. I've made a lot of rock. I have never seen the concentration of C-S-H come pouring out of my rock from moment one. It really whooshes out, and so far I haven't gotten "clean" water yet. Normally there is a point after releasing the salt that not much C-S-H is evident and the water stays fairly clear, and then several days later it starts to cloud up pretty good. My water looks like chalk water even after several flushes. I'm hoping this is a good sign - that the C-S-H will readily flush out and leave kured rock after a week or two. I do think that the pH is going to be high, for the next few flushings, but have high hopes that once the "loose" C-S-H is flushed out, the rock will register a much lower pH - maybe low enough to be ready.
That would Rock!
And that's ok, Goldmaniac - I forgive you.
Post where you end up finding your white cement, if you would, please. That goes for all of you that use the white portland, and what brand you use. I'm compiling a list for future reference as to where what can be purchased.
Got to go - busy day!
I have been doing a little bit of research this evening and may have come up with an "admixture" that may reduce the pH problem if not remove it completely in the long run. I am going to link a couple of articles that I used to come up with the information. Someone else may have found the same info, but I like to start with the root of the problem and work my way through to a solution.
The main problem with DIY rock is the pH swing. From what I have researched, and most probably read earlier in this thread, the cause of the problem is "calcium hydroxide (lime) and related compounds which increase pH and calcium concentration."(Link 1)
The only sure fire way to reduce/remove the pH problem is to remove the source. Since calcium hydroxide is one of the main compounds in cement we cant really get rid of it. What i propose is to mess with the chemical makeup of the compound by adding what the people in the cement industry call Pozzolans(Link 2).
Pozzolans convert the calcium hydroxide into harder substances, such as calcium silicate hydrates or calcium aluminosilicate hydrates(Link 3).
I dont really know how well this will work, but plan on trying it out after my current batch finishes kuring. The third link gives some examples of some pozzolans (metakaolin clay, silica fume, diatomaceous earth and fly ash act as pozzolans). Probably the easiest to get ahold of will either be the fly ash or diatomaceous earth.
Diatomaceous earth has a lot of everyday uses so it should be available at either lowes or one our the local agriculture stores (as it is an organic insecticide - it cuts thier feet up to put it in laymans terms).
Fly Ash (link 4) can probably be found rather easily as it is a by product of burning coal. If anyone has a lead of where I can get my hands on some around tulsa or even tahlequah oklahoma I would be willing to do a test on both of these.
So, what does everyone think? Am I barking up an empty tree? The chemistry works out but how well do you think it will work?
The main problem with DIY rock is the pH swing. From what I have researched, and most probably read earlier in this thread, the cause of the problem is "calcium hydroxide (lime) and related compounds which increase pH and calcium concentration."(Link 1)
The only sure fire way to reduce/remove the pH problem is to remove the source. Since calcium hydroxide is one of the main compounds in cement we cant really get rid of it. What i propose is to mess with the chemical makeup of the compound by adding what the people in the cement industry call Pozzolans(Link 2).
Pozzolans convert the calcium hydroxide into harder substances, such as calcium silicate hydrates or calcium aluminosilicate hydrates(Link 3).
I dont really know how well this will work, but plan on trying it out after my current batch finishes kuring. The third link gives some examples of some pozzolans (metakaolin clay, silica fume, diatomaceous earth and fly ash act as pozzolans). Probably the easiest to get ahold of will either be the fly ash or diatomaceous earth.
Diatomaceous earth has a lot of everyday uses so it should be available at either lowes or one our the local agriculture stores (as it is an organic insecticide - it cuts thier feet up to put it in laymans terms).
Fly Ash (link 4) can probably be found rather easily as it is a by product of burning coal. If anyone has a lead of where I can get my hands on some around tulsa or even tahlequah oklahoma I would be willing to do a test on both of these.
So, what does everyone think? Am I barking up an empty tree? The chemistry works out but how well do you think it will work?
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GuySmilie
Premium Member
Nope, I don't think you're barking up an empty tree.
I also tuned into the D.E. and fly ash angle back when I started doing this. But I never was ambitious enough to track down a local source. The D.E. is standard aquaria media and can be found in LFSs that keep a foot in the past, so to speak.
Fly ash is abundant if you have any manufacturing plants nearby that generate their own electricity. We have several in our town and they have so much ash to get rid of that they have even proposed making a 'mountain' out in the country from it, then cover it with man made snow for the skiers to use! Can you believe it?
But, due to safety and insurance regulations, they will not allow 'civilians' onsite to collect any. But YMMV where you live. I will be curious to see your results, if you pursue this.
I also tuned into the D.E. and fly ash angle back when I started doing this. But I never was ambitious enough to track down a local source. The D.E. is standard aquaria media and can be found in LFSs that keep a foot in the past, so to speak.
Fly ash is abundant if you have any manufacturing plants nearby that generate their own electricity. We have several in our town and they have so much ash to get rid of that they have even proposed making a 'mountain' out in the country from it, then cover it with man made snow for the skiers to use! Can you believe it?
But, due to safety and insurance regulations, they will not allow 'civilians' onsite to collect any. But YMMV where you live. I will be curious to see your results, if you pursue this.
Insane Reefer
New member
Good work, Tahlequah.
I personally would avoid fly ash, and even DE - but I didn't know about SB (NaHCO3) - this I would be willing to try. When soda has been mentioned in the past, it has always been as a "can't you make voids with it?", never as a kuring method.
If I get that first link, one would add the soda directly to the mix? I would think, being a sodium, that it would severely retard the curing/set process (though if the cement industry is using it, maybe this isn't the case) - we already have <some> problems with sodium weakening - I fear this might make it worse...
Wonder how much soda to do a 50lbs batch of rock?
I personally would avoid fly ash, and even DE - but I didn't know about SB (NaHCO3) - this I would be willing to try. When soda has been mentioned in the past, it has always been as a "can't you make voids with it?", never as a kuring method.
If I get that first link, one would add the soda directly to the mix? I would think, being a sodium, that it would severely retard the curing/set process (though if the cement industry is using it, maybe this isn't the case) - we already have <some> problems with sodium weakening - I fear this might make it worse...
Wonder how much soda to do a 50lbs batch of rock?
Travis L. Stevens
New member
That is correct. CaOH2 is what causes the pH to spike to lethal levels for our marine ornamentals. On the other hand, CaOH2 is often used as a Calcium and Alkalinity supplement. So, is CaOH2 really that bad?
Our current methods involve reducing by allowing the rock to Cure for a period of days/weeks (testing is being done for months) and then allowed to Kure in water for a period of days/weeks/months in order to draw out any excess CaOH2. Adding something, as you already know, is what we are working on to try to reduce pH problems.
This is the C-S-H bond that was talked about a few (or more) pages ago that already naturall occurs within the rock. I don't know if this would speed up the CaOH2 reduction, or not. You might add it in there and it might still take just as long. Also, what if there is too much? Then you might have extra silicates in your rocks; more so than you might want for diatoms.
You might want to do some serious research on DE first. There is a huge thread about it in the Advanced Topics section that I have yet to truly read through.
Fly Ash might be more viable, but it would just be an added cost that might be hard to find making the rock more of a hassle to make and more expensive for the reefer on a budget.
Don't get me wrong, I think this is perfectly viable, but way off from the original intent of the thread; to provide reefers with cheap custom rocks quickly. Even with all the extra added ingredients, it's still most likely going to be cheaper than the real thing, but the practicallity of finding some of the ingredients might be difficult. With that said, I highly encourage you to look further into this and test it out.
eznet2u
Active member
I have followed this thread through all the splits. I want to try my hand at DIY rock.
I have a few of questions.
First, has anyone heard of this product...AALBORG White Cement
Second, Is this safe to use in our systems?
Third, Where do I find it?
Thanks for all of the information that you guys/gals have put out.
It is dedication to experimentation like this that drives this hobby.
I have a few of questions.
First, has anyone heard of this product...AALBORG White Cement
Second, Is this safe to use in our systems?
Third, Where do I find it?
Thanks for all of the information that you guys/gals have put out.
It is dedication to experimentation like this that drives this hobby.
Insane Reefer
New member
Welcome to the thread EzNet2U. I looked over that site, and it seems like that stuff is available everywhere but in the N/S American continents, lol.
Lehigh makes a comparable white cement, and it is reasonably easy to find at true masonry supplies.
HTH
Lehigh makes a comparable white cement, and it is reasonably easy to find at true masonry supplies.
HTH
silverwolf72
New member
Here is my latest; 3parts Oyster shell, 1/2 part Portland, 1/2part Quikrete Concrete, 1 part Solar Salt. I'm really amazed how light this stuff is when it's dry. When spraying it down water just seems to shoot threw it, no puddles, really porous. Working on doing lots of ledges so no fancy shapes. This is what I was able to make from 1 bag of OS, really good for $20 worth of materials!!!
silverwolf72
New member
One more thing thats a 6' wide kiddie pool for some scale.
Insane Reefer
New member
Ok.
We "know" that acid baths can't actually stop the chemical processes that happen during the first 28 days of the rocks life - at best they neutralize the current pH, which after a week or two starts being high again.
But what if one waited until after day 28? Waited until 90% hydration had occurred? Just left the rock out to air cure, flush it a few times and then do a 24 hour acid bath? My thoughts are that if most of the C-S-H has formed by day 28, then most of the chemical process is over and very little pH will form after that point - so once the pH that exists is neutralized - it (the rock) should be done. Where are the flaws in this theory, that I am not seeing?
Either vinegar or citric acid would work, both are cheap and most importantly, either can be disposed of without harm to the environment.
If, as Travis said, the idea behind this thread is for the best rocks we can make, for least amount of money - well, not using hundreds of gallons of water for kuring will make these rock even cheaper and more environmentally friendly.
Be interested in your thoughts.
We "know" that acid baths can't actually stop the chemical processes that happen during the first 28 days of the rocks life - at best they neutralize the current pH, which after a week or two starts being high again.
But what if one waited until after day 28? Waited until 90% hydration had occurred? Just left the rock out to air cure, flush it a few times and then do a 24 hour acid bath? My thoughts are that if most of the C-S-H has formed by day 28, then most of the chemical process is over and very little pH will form after that point - so once the pH that exists is neutralized - it (the rock) should be done. Where are the flaws in this theory, that I am not seeing?
Either vinegar or citric acid would work, both are cheap and most importantly, either can be disposed of without harm to the environment.
If, as Travis said, the idea behind this thread is for the best rocks we can make, for least amount of money - well, not using hundreds of gallons of water for kuring will make these rock even cheaper and more environmentally friendly.
Be interested in your thoughts.
airinhere
New member
Hey there! I agree about the final acid wash, but am wondering if it could be done even earlier. I have been making large, thick sheets that cover the whole back of my tanks. They are designed to look like a rock shelf with caves and projections all over them. I ususally have to make them in several pieces so they can fit into the tank with the bracing in the way. Most of these pieces are probably about 20 to 30 pounds. (About 2 ft by 1 ft by six inches deep) I have been freshwater dipping these pieces for three weeks and then during the fourth week, I have been putting them into a saltwater container. The first one I did was almost a full 4 week wait and I have experienced no ph elevation from those pieces. My other 90 gal set was put in at the beginning of the fourth week and had a ph spike up to 8.8 or above. This set was almost half again more aragocrete and I added vineager regularly to maintain a lower ph. I also experienced major precipate events for both sets when I first started dosing soda ash and calcium chloride to balance the dkh and ca in the storage tanks. Probably from the lime in the rocks leeching out. the last set I did was larger yet and for a 120 gal system. It was put into salt water at the start of week four and also experienced a severe precipate event. Took a little over a week for the second 90 to settle its ph issues and the 120 took almost 2 weks. The precipate events were very severe and coated the sides of the container the MMLR were soaking in with a thick hard white film. I think that by pulling the rock straight from freshwater into saltwater, I skipped a needed step. Maybe A short soak in heavily concentrated vineager would have dissolved the lime that was still in and on the MMLR. Murriatic acid could also work, and I am going to try that with my latest set of pillars. Besides, I am now using the Lehigh white cement and the freshwater soak is leaving an unsightly brown residue on the rock that looks like diatoms. My plan is to pull some pieces after only 14 days in freshwater and try a 24 hour soak in 20% murriatic acid and then rinse off with freshwater. Hopefully, I will have gleaming white pieces with little to no lime residue or magnesium residue still in it. I will let you know how it works.
GuySmilie
Premium Member
IR, I'm not sure what would happen in the scenario you've put forth. But here's an observation I've made today.
I've been kuring a couple of batches of rock for more than six weeks now. They have been soaking all this time in fresh tap water. The first two weeks I would change the water daily. For the remaining weeks I changed the water maybe twice a week. I've never left them in running water. I've never 'baked' them. I've never boiled them. I've never treated them with an acidic solution. Just a long soak.
So the other day I took them all out of the water and placed them on a plastic table outside to dry. Since they are so porous, it took several days for the water puddling from the rock to finally dry up. And what I noticed today on the table is what looks to be a crusty deposit left behind from the evaporated water puddles. I'm not certain what it is, but it looks like it may be salt.
So, I'm rather surprised after six weeks of soaking, that these rocks still contain a lot of salt.
Just my observations and thoughts.
I've been kuring a couple of batches of rock for more than six weeks now. They have been soaking all this time in fresh tap water. The first two weeks I would change the water daily. For the remaining weeks I changed the water maybe twice a week. I've never left them in running water. I've never 'baked' them. I've never boiled them. I've never treated them with an acidic solution. Just a long soak.
So the other day I took them all out of the water and placed them on a plastic table outside to dry. Since they are so porous, it took several days for the water puddling from the rock to finally dry up. And what I noticed today on the table is what looks to be a crusty deposit left behind from the evaporated water puddles. I'm not certain what it is, but it looks like it may be salt.
So, I'm rather surprised after six weeks of soaking, that these rocks still contain a lot of salt.
Just my observations and thoughts.
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Insane Reefer
New member
I really don't think so, airinhere - I think any earlier than 28 days and you are wasting time and resources - until the chemical reactions are "finished", I think it is back to "acid/vinegar baths don't work". But the only way to know it to test. I have some fresh baked, flushed rock, that I soaked in 1/2 cup of 5% vinegar mixed with 1 gallon of RO water. Soaked for 24 hours. Is now in a rinse soak. Will test pH in a week and see what it says. Will retest in two weeks to see if it is holding stable.
I also have a piece of 45 day old rock that was air kured and nothing else - it is soaking in the same solution, and will undergo the same treatment. I will post my findings, and if positive, will test more thoroughly.
Guy, you didn't mention any pre-kuring handling. How long from the time you mixed the cement, to the time you put them in water to kure? What sort of water volume to rock ratio are you talking about? If you used cold water for kuring, and never any hot, and the pieces are large and thick and you didn't have any water movement, you might still be seeing salt, but it is more likely to be C-S-H, the stuff that is being chemically made from day one to supposedly day twenty-eight (give or take, of course), and the main thing we are purging from the rock to bring the pH down. Salt should form definite crystals if leaching out of the rock with moisture, not a powdery substance. Neither C-S-H or salt are particularly harmful if ingested, you could always use the tip of a finger to dab up a small taste - like cops do to test suspected drugs on TV. That's how I figure out if most of the salt is out of my rock - taste for salty.
Just an update on the Diatomaceous Earth idea. I went to Lowes today and bought a 25# box of it for $12.00. Sometime tomorrow evening I will mix up some fresh rock and let them cure for 7 days before submerging them. I will let them sit for another 24hrs and see where the ph is.
I got pool grade D.E. so I would caution anyone else trying the idea to wear a dust mask as it is a very rich silica based substance. You can get freshwater, food grade. D.E. which doesnt have much silica in it, but since I am trying to get the silica to react to the calcium hydroxide i descided to try the silica based D.E.
I got pool grade D.E. so I would caution anyone else trying the idea to wear a dust mask as it is a very rich silica based substance. You can get freshwater, food grade. D.E. which doesnt have much silica in it, but since I am trying to get the silica to react to the calcium hydroxide i descided to try the silica based D.E.
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