The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

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There are a lot of places to buy ceramic frag discs and plugs. Any idea what types of clay they use to make those? They obviously must be reef safe if they are selling them and use them. edensgatecorals.com is one of the places i've seen them.
 
thanks for your replies. I will probably just stick with the man made rocks that have been sucessfull . I finally found the solar salt and crushed oyster shells last weekend while on a turkey hunting trip up north so I am all set to make the rocks to put in my 90 gallon I am in the process of setting up . I may do farther research on the ceramic rock idea just cause I like to learn new things . I would agree that the ceramic would be less porus than the other ideas that have been used . But it could be sculpted with ease and hence the curiosity I have about it . Thank you for your time and input...if I do pursue it , I will post what i find out .
BJ
 
Seeding rock while ph still high?

Seeding rock while ph still high?

What a great (and exhausting) thread. I have a question for y'all:

My cement rock has been taking for-ev-er to cure! I followed a recipe using cement and rock salt to make baseball size pieces and I'm now on week 10 and the ph is still somewhere around 9.0. I'm guessing actually, it's off the chart on my Seachem test kit which only goes up to 8.6. I've been following this thread and trying different things but no luck so far. I'm not giving up though, I've grown quite attached to that bucket of rocks! My question:

Since I still have several (many?) weeks to wait it seems before adding the rock to my display tank, do you think it's worth setting it up in a spare tank with a couple of pieces of live rock to get it seeded even though the ph is still high? My plan is to change the water out with water from my main tank during the weekly water change until the ph stays stable.

Will any bacteria or coralline live through the high ph? Do you think it's worth it or should I just keep curing it with fresh water in a bucket?

Thanks!
 
bacteria will live through the high pH but the coralin seems to show up later. If you set up the rock in a tank and add the "squeezings" from a prefilter, that will be enough seeding. Then add a little household plain ammonia. That will feed the bacteria. Once all the ammonia is converted to end product nitrate, the rock will usually stop leaching and the pH will drop. Of course rinse the seeded rock in discard tank water before adding it to the display tank or the sump.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9819199#post9819199 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by grannybj
I have been following this thread for months...
... Since I only play around with it , I do not know the answers to the question of which clay and I thought someone on here may know the answer?
Click to expand...

Welcome to the thread, Granny :)
It is hard to come by real info on the ReefCeramics - but they do claim to be made of a "calcium and magnesium based product". This might help you try to figure out what they might be using ceramics-wise. However, that description could be used to describe our rock (excepting the magnesium that is), so don't know how helpful that might be. I'm leaning toward plaster of paris type material, but my knowledge of ceramics is limited at best.

PS - Got any Egyptian molds, Granny? My hubby and I are designing our Egyptian bedroom and always looking for cool stuff, lol ;)

And Travis - ceramics can have just as high a porosity as cement does - it just depends on the mix used - such as terra cotta, which you can see absorb water. That's why you can't leave ceramic/clay planters and the like outside during the winter - they get moisture in the matrix and as the water freezes, it expands, cracking the piece.

From my understanding (which could be flawed), Reefcermaics seem to fail because they are too porous, and act as debris sinks - not because they don't house bacteria. Correct me if I am wrong, please, and point me to the correct info - but this is what I've been able to piece together.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9818518#post9818518 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Yinepu
well.. here are two of mine so far...

cement with sand for the first one.. the darker one has salt added.
Click to expand...

Nice job :)
I like the shape of the darker one myself - better "motion", but like the whiter one color-wise. Did you use white portland, or grey? Our local grey portland comes out a dark charcoal color if salt is added, which I think is unappealing, personally, but I have thought of mixing the white and grey to reduce my cost somewhat.

It looks like you used a sand mold for casting? Did you cast it all in one piece or did you cement a bunch of pieces together?

Give some details :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9819370#post9819370 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by impur
...They obviously must be reef safe if they are selling them and use them.
Click to expand...

I just wanted to point this out as a terribly incorrect statement - sorry, Impur, but it is. One fairly common example is cyanide. Cyanide is lethal to fish, yet some collecting companies still use cyanide to capture wild caught fishes because the fish will appear healthy for several weeks, and then slowly decline - usually after being in the hobbyists tank for a week or two.

Another example would be, "Sure - that chocolate chip star is reef safe."

Don't assume because someone put a price tag on something, that it is safe. That just means they found someone to pay them for it - whatever "it" is...

Just my 2 cents.
:mixed:
 
Insane Reefer..thanks for the info on calcium and magnesium...can't imagine what that is but I know some old timers in the ceramic business that may shed some light on it if I can get in touch with them. I have been doing ceramics for 30 years and teaching it for 27 of those 30 years but the aspects of ceramics in the salt water community is a new one for me. Since I have a 40 hour a week job it is just a past time that helps me hold my sanity. I tell friends that there is no problem in the world that I can't drown in clay .
No I don't have an egyptian molds other than a small ram. I had some egyptian students for a few years and they wanted american pieces so I never got into that line of molds.
Sorry for taking it off subject just wanted to let you know some of my background in the ceramic world and thank you for your info.
BJ
 
Insane Reefer...did I see in a post a while back that you are in Mexico , Mo. ? I was in Hannibal all last week visiting friends and hunting. I thought about you when I passed the Mexico/ Louisana sign and wondered if I had read your location right .
 
I live real close to Mexico, 30 minutes or so, Granny. I bought my horrid live rock there...
My husbands people are originally from the Hannibal region.

If you get some guesses as to what Reefceramics might be, let us know. Finely powdered limestone might fit the "calcium/magnesium" requirement - is there a type of porcelain or the like that is made of powdered limestone? Even if it typically is used as a slip or something, nothing says it couldn't be made thick and creamy, which is what this stuff looks like in the few pics of the mix being used. It looks a lot like dry wall compound. Just my thoughts on it. Keep us posted.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9823318#post9823318 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Nice job :)
I like the shape of the darker one myself - better "motion", but like the whiter one color-wise. Did you use white portland, or grey? Our local grey portland comes out a dark charcoal color if salt is added, which I think is unappealing, personally, but I have thought of mixing the white and grey to reduce my cost somewhat.

It looks like you used a sand mold for casting? Did you cast it all in one piece or did you cement a bunch of pieces together?

Give some details :)
Click to expand...
Thanks.. The whiter one was a first attempt at a pillar type rock. It was the white cement. I used a plastic tote with sand in it.. carved out a shape for the base then added a bit of the cement. Added more sand to shore up the sides and more cement... so pretty much an attempt at sculpting; but using the sand as a support...

I did the same for the darker one.. but it is a mix of three parts white to one part regular grey (doesn't take much of the grey to darken it!). I did it the same way with the sand mold/sculpting.

I am working on another white one now.. but it is (will be) pieced together. One section is dry and I am going to expand off to the side and then add height when both pieces are dry. It's more of an attempt at straight sculpting.. so it should be interesting to say the least...
 
Ok. Sometimes "crazy" pays off...

I was really getting curious as to what Reefceramics was made of, and was having a hard time pinning anything down.

So I headed to Wiki, and spent some time following links. Keeping "calcium" in mind, I read through "ceramics", and ended up at "alabaster".
If one goes to the "Porcelain" article, under "European Porcelain", it says:
"...a combination of ingredients, including Colditz clay (a type of kaolin), calcined alabaster and quartz."
Reading the "Alabaster" article, came up with this gem:
"The coarser varieties of alabaster are converted by calcination into plaster of Paris, whence they are sometimes known as "plaster stone."" If this were being done with limestone, you could make cement, if you follow where I am trying to go with this.
If you are following, you need to have your head examined, lol.
Anyway.

Both Plaster of Paris and Alabaster are high in calcium. One is gypsum based, the other limestone based, to grossly simplify.

I was thinking that reefceramics are either white portland, (which is both gypsum and limestone based - all cement is both, but white has a lot more gypsum than grey does) that is being fired like a brick to (possibly) eliminate the 4-8 week curing period (because if you read, reefceramics still needs to kure for a week or two), or is plaster of paris based or alabaster porcelain based.
Or maybe it's the weird b@$+@?|) love-child of white cement and either of the other two.

But I then googled "cement magnesium", and found something called "eco-cement". A great, but simple article on eco-cement can be found here:
http://www.tececo.com/simple.eco-cement.php

So maybe reefceramics are made of this "Eco-Cement", or a combination of something mentioned above. In reading this article, you could see where folks might run into trouble down the road, and how "detritus sink" could be used to describe them by folks experiencing problems.

I just wanted to share that - maybe that will give Granny something to ask the "old-timers" about or one of you might think of something.

I hate being a curious monkey...
 
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And finally, I find buried deep in a couple of archives, mention that reef ceramics are made either with ARM (aragonite reactor media - crushed?), or another type might be made from some sort of sintered glass...
 
Huuummm!!!...interesting readiing material you have scoped out there Insane Reefer. I did a little googling of my own last night after our monthly reef club meeting but I did not come up with as much info as you did so it does pay to be a curious Monkey. One other aspect of figuring out what they MAY have used to make the material out of is that some compounds explode like a bomb in the kiln. Heat alone can make some compounds lethal . One of my old timer contacts advised me against making guesses unless I was ready to loose my expensive kiln elements and bricks " to see if I had figured it out " I have had a few explosions in the past from simple trapped moisture so I know what he was referring to . I am not giving up on trying to figure out what it is made of but I want to look at the reaction to heat from suspect materials too . But then again if we are searching for a dietrious trap recipe , it may not pay off in the long run.
I do appreciate your input and look forward to more info . In the meantime, I will be making some of the tried and true crushed oyster shell , solar salt , cement and sand this week and I will post my results. I have already made a batch without the solar salt and they are in thier 6th week of curing. Since it was my first attempt , they are not too pretty but were lots of fun to make.
Thanks again
BJ
 
Speaking of blowing things up, I am in process of baking my 36 hour old batch (or at least 2 pieces). I have a pan of water in there, and am baking at 500°F. I have the kitchen blocked off to prevent fumes in the rest of the house, and a fan in the kitchen window, venting.
GrannyBJ - since you have experience, I'd like to ask you a few things. How long would you bake the rock? Cement brick companies bake the rock @ 400°F for "several hours", under pressure and with lots of moisture, but I don't know how long several hours might be. By baking the rock, they can speed the curing process (28 days) to a few hours. What would you suggest? Any tips you can offer? Do you think I am wasting my time?
 
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well now that would be a hard estimate to guess at . With my kiln I do a first fire on greenware to a cone 04 which is a maximum temp of 1947 degrees after the kiln is ramping up over a 6 hour period. At that temp all the gases are released for the next firing which will finish off at a cooler temp . I would think to be doing it in a home oven for drying purposes only , it would take a while ( to make a guess if it were me doing it) I would say no less than 3 hours. I am not exactly clear how the heat on with the MMR will shorten the cure so my mind keep going back to making sure it is completely dry and that will take a while since water can be trapped in the less porus insides of the rock. I hope this helps some but my experience is with a lot more heat than an oven provides. I wonder what would happen should I put a piece of rock in my kiln...kaboom comes to mind...maybe I should go back to my old timers and ask how concerte works in a kiln. If I had a raku kiln set up I could for sure try it but all my kilns are the enclosed electric models...isn't it awful when inquiring minds want to know ?
BJ
 
The idea GrannyBJ, is the "Q10 temperature coefficient", which states that a rise in tempurature increases boilogical and chemical process by orders of magnatude. Simply put, more heat makes things happen faster. The cement brick industry uses this to fire bricks - the use low temps, but high pressure, and force the curing of the bricks in hours instead of weeks. Normally, it takes 28 days for cement to reach its full strength, which also coincides with about 90% hydration. The idea is that heat and moisture speed the hydration process, which will hopefully mean rock with a short kure cycle.

The kitchen has gotten warm and streamy, and sort of stingy on the eyes and throat. I'm doing a 4 hour bake at slightly higher than the industry uses, but can't pressurize it.

Will release salt in a boiling bath, and post the pH at that time.
 
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