The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[Travis L. Stevens]

Wow! I just can't manage to keep up the pace on this thread. I've had a few people keeping me updated on this thread to the best of their abilities, but I still need to go back to about page 16 and start reading again. I have a lot to catch up on. In the mean time, I took a little time to scan through the last 10 pages that I haven't read from my last update for anyone that referenced my name in any questions/comments. I only found two, and I'm not too sure if they've been covered, so I apologize if it has already been answered

Not disrespect to Travis, but I think it was a mater of convenience in using rock salt and not scientific research on his part, where Reefball worked with a university to develop their system. I think that carries more weight.

No disrespect at all. But I'm afraid you are wrong. The reason I used salt was to create voids in the rock for better biological activity. I would have loved to use this for scientific research, but I just don't have the means to go beyond anecdotal evidence. If I had a chance to work with a university to create more biologically sound rocks, I would have. Other than that, we're kind of back to square one. 50% science, 50% Easy DIY Project.

It looks like Co2 is the best candidate for carbonation, however it is usually done at pressure, which most of us can't do, and adding to to water makes carbonic acid, and a cement engineer told us that that would simply strip the carbonated layers and create a vicious cycle, leaving us with rock with a high pH. Rain actually seems to be the best delivery system for Co2, from what I can find, but it could take months for that much rain to fall, and holding it in bins to use isn't the same - it needs to be fresh rain, with lots of readily available Co2 to do much good
Wonder if a sprinkler would do the same thing???
Maybe Mr Wilson, Travis or someone else how has a fairly good grasp of chemistry can answer that. Wouldn't it be great if you could just place your rock in and around your garden or lawn and just turn the sprinkler on for an hour or two a day, once or twice a day, and get your stuff watered and kure your rock at the same time?
Just a thought.

Agreed. CO2 to the water causes it to become Carbonic Acid. It would basically eat away at the rock; stripping layers to expose new areas just to, in turn, increase the pH again.

 

[Rhodophyta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10239154#post10239154 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
I forgot that I posted this a while back....has anyone experimented with it to determine the proper ratios of epoxy and aggregates?

Yes, about three years ago one of the C-SEA members presented it as part of an aragocrete workshop. The right amount varied by the aggregate so his suggestion was to add resin until the mix was slightly moist. If you use too much, not much harm will be done, it will just collect at the bottom of the piece. He used the resin from Home Depot.

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

Travis's Catch-Up Replies(Part 1 [Pages 16-25])
This will be huge, so feel free to skip it all. Maybe for those that have some questions that may have already been answered, it will help answer them again.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10015400#post10015400 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TheNomadRhodes
I have some thing to ask real fast and sorry if this has all ready been covered.
I want to do my next little zoa thank with nothing but DIY rock.
Here is my question, how long dose it take for the rock to become well live? Is there any thing you can seed it with. I was thinking maybe some rock out of my old thank but what about any nasty little bugs that might make to the new rock that is what i'm trying to avoid?

A couple months at the most. You'll see tremendous outward visual signs by the 6 month mark. Usually, it only takes 6 months for it to look like it came from the ocean.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10016651#post10016651 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
This was the first time this happened, lol.
My husband was supposed to wake me so I could take the rocks out and plunge them, but he forgot - they stayed in the stove and extra 2 hours, and since they were pretty cool by then, I went ahead and rewarmed them to 250°F for an hour. Then I plunged them. So they were in a warm moist environment for close to 10 hours (I was playing with a 6 hour bake).

Maybe there is something to Travis's idea of a slower, longer bake...

I hope so. Lots of testing to be done though.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10016664#post10016664 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I asked because my tap water is 7.5 - not that a .2 difference would matter, but was curious.

I'd say you are safe, unless the salt hasn't released completely - do a taste test. I had some test rocks I was excited about until I cut them open and discovered that the core was still solid

The unreleased salt will have no effect on the tank except maybe a slightly increased tank salinity. On the other hand, this can be used as an indicator on how deep the water is actually soaking in to the rock

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10022907#post10022907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coffeedolphin
could you make a pvc framework- predrilled with varying diameter holes as an infrastructure for large diy rock pieces - run a powerhead through th rock while curing to increase flow through the rock while submerged in a salt swimming pool - non chlorine- to expedite the process and later use the inlet from the powerhead for internal flow within the aquarium?

Technically no. If I'm reading this right, the water would just flow through the PVC and not actually make it in to the rock. Of course, you could drill lots of holes in the PVC before putting it in the rock, but I doubt that it would have any much of a larger effect on the entire Kuring process. On the other hand, I worry about damage to your pool's structural lining from the extra Ca(OH)2 that comes out of the rocks. This could damage something permenantly. I'm not sure how those saltwater pools work though

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10025088#post10025088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by manitou
i don't knwo if anyone has mentioned this, but my info comes from my brother-in-law who own's a custome tile company. He says that adding a table spoon of baking soda to a bucket of mix (1 part cement, 3 parts sand... used for making a "sand bed" to shape the sloop of custom shower floors) will get it to "kick" quicker. We did this on for my home remodel projects, but I don't have anything to compare it to.

Perhaps someone else can comment on the science of the reaction taking place. I'm trying it on my second batch (first go round isn't doing so well) of DIY rocks.

I honestly don't see how adding Sodium Bicarbonate is going to help reduce the pH. The chemical that is causing the pH spike is Calcium Hydroxide (Ca(OH)2). It might help strengthen, or set the cement quicker, but I don't think it will actually reduce the pH in the long run.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10032009#post10032009 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onnenmd
I'm getting ready to try a first batch in the next couple of weeks (need to gather all stuff). I'm wondering from people that tried this for the first time what their results were. Was it easy/hard/never do it again? Did the first batch turn out right? What do they wish they had done different after making several batches compared to the first.

First try successrates vary wildly. For those unsuccessful the first time are usually successful the second time. So, you're bound to get it right within the first few tries.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10059735#post10059735 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Well, this might sound like a dumb question, lol, but what exactly are we leeching out when we lower the pH? My hubby says it is lime that didn't hydrate. I can't find anywhere where it actually says...

It's the Calcium Hydroxide (Ca(OH)2) that hasn't bonded to the Silicates in the cement

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10060390#post10060390 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by medic29
I don't know, but I'd say the foam is evidence of a chemical reaction?? I mean when you put a baking soda solution on battery acid you get foam from the reaction and release of gas. Could this not be similar?? Just a thought. I mean, vinegar doesn't make foam on its own...

Yes, the Vinegar (Acetic Acid) is reacting with the Ca(OH)2 (a base) in order to make a salt (I don't know what kind) and release Hydrogen.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10064725#post10064725 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
what about using plastic nuts and bolts to help attach multiple pieces together? Is that feasible?

Sure. Just make sure that they are vinyl. That's the type of nuts and bolts that are used in HOB overflow boxes to hold the adjustable box in place.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10069410#post10069410 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by silverwolf72
Will putting half Kured rock raise the Ca lvl in the tank. I'm trying to seed some base rock and wondering if adding a couple of pieces may help speed it up.

I don't know if it will help seed the base rock at all, but yes, even though Kured DIY Rock might be fine at 8.3 pH, it will still leech out a little Ca(OH)2 in order to supplement Calcium and Carbonate to the tank.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10070860#post10070860 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tahlequah
This is just an observation, but the reason some of the DIY rocks are not leaching out the middle salt is because the salt to cement mixture is to high. There are just not enough tunnels to reach the middle with the 1~1.5 salt to 1 cement mixes. I think Travis was just about on the money when he came up with the 4:1 ratio in the beginning. Another perk to the higher ratio is possably a faster kure time as kraze3 stated, there is less to leach out.

My thoughts exactly. Maybe adding fly ash to the mixture will help strengthen what little cement is already in the mixture as well as reduce the Kure time.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10071511#post10071511 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
You mention a typical cure in freshwater taking 3 months. How long does it take you to cure it in saltwater?

It's not normal for it to take up to 3 months to Kure. But, Kuring it in saltwater will only make it take longer as the water is already "used" with all the salt and other chemicals. It will leave very little space for the Ca(OH)2 to come out in to.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10073231#post10073231 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kraze3
It would also be helpful if we could somehow find out how long it takes for the "bad substance" to leech into the water until it hits that point where it cant leech anymore. Another words, is it worth it to do 2, 3, 4, maybe even 5 water changes a day or is that just a waste of water. I currently have 4 rocks sitting in a 32 gallon rubbermaid tub in my backyard. Most of the time I work all day, but somedays and weekends I could do multiple water changes if it would speed up the leeching. Ive also thought of leaving the hose on just trickling into the tub all day. Just a thought.

This shouldn't be too hard. For starters, pH gives a general indicator. Second, you could use a Calcium Test Kit to find out how much is in the water. You'll have to find an external link to figure out what the saturation point of water is with Calcium. Using general Limewater techniques for reefs, you know that not much more Ca(OH)2 will fit in to a 1g jug beyond two teaspoons (which is typically the saturation point with a little leftover in the bottom).

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10074269#post10074269 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michaelalan
Insane,

I have a new test for your lab monkeys and a suggestion for a “control” rock.

Baking at a lower temp.

When slow cooking a roast, it is suggested that the temperature is not to exceed 212 degrees F because that’s the magical evaporation point for water. Therefore temperatures above 211 may inhibit the hydration effect. We should test that theory.
Calcium melts at 1548 degrees F so my theory is that anything over 211 degrees is wasted energy unless you are hitting 1548 degrees.

Control Group â€"œ
In any good experiment there is a control group, a constant to test the “new method” against. Out of every batch of rocks mark one rock as the control and do the normal water RO water soak. No water changes, no vinegar additives, no nothing. Then when you test the “new method” rock you have the control rock to compare it to.

Good point about baking at a lower temperature. it won't dry out the rock as fast. But, is the reason why commercial industries bakes the rock at a certain temperature based on how quickly water evaps, or a temperature point where Ca(OH)2 binds with Silicates? If it is the latter, then we want to match this in order to give the rock strength and reduce Kure time.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10074403#post10074403 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goldmaniac
Thanks, GUY..

I forget, it's Silica that we don't want, right? Silicates are ok?

I'll call them.

- G.

Pretty much the same thing. And in the cement, we do want silicates. In our reef tanks, we don't want excess (it's okay to have some)

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10077529#post10077529 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Ok. It has been theorized and asked several times in this thread - Will MMLR rocks help raise/maintain Calcium or ALK levels in an established aquarium?
Michealalan got me thinking, lol. I realized I have results sitting in front of me - my back-wall. This back-wall weighed almost 7lbs and was installed at the beginning of March (see my gallery). I can't find any batteries, or I'd snap a new pic, but 3 months later, it is growing coralline and I've glued shrooms and polyps to the back-wall and it is starting to fill in nicely. It measured, in a saltwater test bath, at just under 9.0 pH, so I used it.

But the important part.
I have been having a devil of a time keeping my calcium up above 400, never-mind 450, lol. For now I have abandoned the effort as I have nothing that really needs it right now.

My pH and ALK, which I just tested are at 8.0 and "off the chart", respectively. If I had to guesstimate, I'd say ALK is better than 350ppm, and probably closer to 400ppm - and this is about as low as it gets.
I haven't done a water change in 3 weeks *blush*. So this is just as it stands.

ALK is being maintained at high levels. I am only adding Kent Coral-vite at this point - a few drops every few days. Calcium is not being maintained, and has to be replenished.
I think I remember that calcium and alk are sort of mutually exclusive - that when one is high, it is more difficult to maintain high levels with the other. Someone more into reef chemistry might interpret this differently, but I think this is one test result on the "Yes" side of "Can the rocks replace (at least to a point) KALK?"

Thoughts?

I have a similar experience. The 10g tank that I used in the "Want to Start a Marine Aquarium?: A Step by Step Guide" has been filled with DIY rock for several months with no other animals in it (besides bacteria, pods, etc). The Alk and Ca have both raised significantly, just like a slow drip of Kalkwasser would do. The Calcium was 680 ppm and the Alkalinity was 14 dKH. Not too bad. Too bad I didn't have anything in the tank that would have liked the additional Calcium

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10078276#post10078276 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onnenmd
Has anyone "pitched" these to a LFS? If so, did they sell them? How much did they sell them for? and did they actually sell?:blown:

Yes, Yes, I don't know, but I got $2/lb for it. They sold every last piece and were asking for more. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to make it a full blown business.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10089149#post10089149 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Sand like Brad is going to collect is fine. Silica Ok - Silicates Bad.
Again, calcium based really means nothing in-tank; algae likes growing on the smooth silica grains (just like glass to them), but it doesn't put off nutrients/silicates or anything that encourages their growth.

You might want to read through these links. It'll help clear up any confusion. Silica is a type of silicate. It too can release silicates. It's doubtful that the release of such silicates will be harmful or cause some sort of Diatom bloom that will do anything else but look bad to the human eye.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10103816#post10103816 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Filler?

Has anyone considered using small polystyrene beads as filler to create volume and air pockets in the concrete (same stuff used to fill bean bag chairs).......They are very cheap and most fabric supply places carry them...

http://www.beanbagbeads.com/images/MS01-lg.jpg

Even though it will create pockets, will it "vanish" out of the rocks so bacteria can fill the void?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10107143#post10107143 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunkool
Again these chemists are looking for structural support and I could see where that would be an issue. They were not making liverock.
These rocks are not brittle and the rock is only going to get harder every day once put in the tank. The rock will absorb calcium from the water and be covered in coraline way before it has time to disintegrate.

You'll be surprised what time can do to DIY Rock. I've had some rock absolutely crumble after 6 months. I definitely chauk this up to too much salt melting in the mix. Also, the rock will no absorb calcium. Things on the rock might use it, but in fact, the rock leaches out Ca(OH)2. This is what spikes the pH. It's Calcium that hasn't bonded to the Silicates in the Clay of the Portland Cement.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10107239#post10107239 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
You do it like you like
I've seen MMLR that went wrong long after it was added to the tank, and it didn't have salt in it.

I've seen this, too.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10108232#post10108232 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
"Structural support" is important to us too, unless we would be happy with live sand or live gravel instead of live rock. And if you've ever watched them build a highway or sidewalk, the structural support of concrete comes from the prepared ground and from steel rebar and grid.

I don't think there is any reason to imagine calcium being absorbed from the water by our rock. Unless we interrupt that process, the calcium in the rock is going to absorb the water of hydration if it can, something it does better in air and humidity. We are concerned with calcium leaking OUT of the rock, raising our pH.

It deserves to be said again.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10108649#post10108649 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunkool
you are using this rock as a filter and you think ti wont absorb calcuim?

The rock itself will not absorb Calcium. Neither will any bacteria involved in the Nitrogen Cycle. There are things that live in and on the rock that will use it. Predominantly Calcerous algae.





......I'm going to have to finish pages 26-37 and all the new posts some time on Monday if I'm lucky.

 

[frog.pauley]

I made my rocks about 2 months ago...1:1 ration with rock salt and portland...submerged in freshwater creek for about a month and a half....placed in tank...ph 9.0 or higher...did I not give them enough time?

 

[michaelalan]

I tried my polymer crystal dissolve test earlier this week and had no success.

I am going to let the crystals dry out and shrink down and then try it again. I want to see if they take on saltwater instead of being surrounded by salt water, and see if that has a different result.

 

[Dell2go]

Yeh, yeh

 

[Rhodophyta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10239367#post10239367 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Do you happen to know which epoxy they used?

Home Depot's epoxy.

 

[mr.wilson]

Travis,

The practice of soaking the rock in freshwater is very effective at driving out (leaching) calcium, and subsequently lowering the PH of the rock. My question is whether this is truly necessary. If you were to soak natural live rock in ion-poor water, it too would render a high PH.

Ion-rich saltwater will allow calcium to slowly leach out as room becomes available for it in bulk water. Providing the surface is etched (PH stabilized), you shouldn't have a significant PH increase with this slow leach.

Can you etch the rock with a weak acid, place it directly into a new tank, then control PH with a Co2 system? Nitrifying bacteria will not be inhibited by a small increase in PH.

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

mr.wilson,

That is true, but that is because it is a calcium based rock. Coral Skeletons will do the same thing. The difference between Calcium Bicarbonate (or is it Carbonate?) rocks and DIY rocks is the fact that the real rocks are literally breaking down in the more acidic solution, when what we are trying to do is wash out the excess Ca(OH)2 in our DIY rocks. The lowered pH of the solution that the rocks are in is a double edged sword. It is speedily washing out the Ca(OH)2, but it is also degrading the rocks. This is one of the reasons for a speedy Kure. We don't want to jeopordize the integral strength of the rocks, and we also want to waste as little as possible.

Unfortunately, water has a saturation point, just like any other solvent. Adding salt is just increasing what is already in the water. Granted, it is true that it will slow down the calcium leach, but in return the extended Kure time and extra materials to create the solution would lend itself as being not very cost efficient.

I'm sure you can etch rock with weak acid and use CO2 to control the pH, but that's just another equation of the cost factor. On top of that, CO2 added to water creates carbonic acid, and it will deteriorate the rock because it is calcium based. Adding CO2 to a tank to control the pH would essentially be making a giant Calcium Reactor with a Kalkwasser drip effect as the trapped Ca(OH)2 would leach out.

I see where you are going with this, but I think the solution is to get it done completely as fast as possible.

 

[impur]

Frog-poly sometimes i guess it takes longer. I've got frag plugs in my toilet tank that are going on their 3rd month and pH is still 10+.

 

[michaelalan]

impur,

Have you tested your tap water to see what pH it is?

I test my diy rock for readiness by soaking it in RO water after I remove it from the soak solution, i.e. you toilet tank.

I also test my RO water first to make sure it's below 8.2 pH so I can tell if the DIY rock is still leaching.

 

[impur]

I haven't tested tap water. But i do the same thing as you when testing diy rock. We have really good water here, so i can't imagine it being very high pH. The tds in our water is real low as well.

 

[michaelalan]

Right on. The water around here comes from a limestone aquifer so it’s my theory that my tap water isn’t so hot for leeching out the unused calcium. Since my water is already loaded with it it reduces the effectiveness of osmosis or diffusion or whatever it’s called.

 

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10241081#post10241081 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
Home Depot's epoxy.

thanks....I'll get in there in the next few days to see what they have.

 

[Rhodophyta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10245989#post10245989 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
thanks....I'll get in there in the next few days to see what they have.

The HDs around here just have one brand of epoxy. I'll have to check what it is called next time I'm there. I'm pretty sure it's by name way back in this thread or the alternate, but it would be easier to drive to the store.

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10238556#post10238556 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
Speaking of weird concretes, I've seen literature about new porous cement sidewalks, driveways, and parking lots that require less runoff management because rain soaks through instead of running off in streams.

Even better, "Green" cement. It acts as a carbon sink - a city paved in it would have the same effect on carbons emissions as the rain forest does - or so they claim...

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10239082#post10239082 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
...Back in the day, they used blood on the final coat to slow the curing process to control shrinkage cracks.

Talk about painting the town red...

 

[Insane Reefer]

Does anyone understand this?
And if so, can you help me out?

A simplification of the chemical
reactions for precipitating lime with
SODIUM BICARBONATE is:
Ca(OH)2 + NaHCO3 ® CaCO3 ¯ + NaOH + H2O
When using SODIUM BICARBONATE
to treat cement contamination:
SODIUM BICARBONATE (lb/bbl) =
Excess lime (lb/bbl) x 1.135 x Fw
Where:
Fw = Water fraction from retort
analysis (% water/100)
One pound (0.45 kg) of SODIUM
BICARBONATE will remove 0.88 lb
(0.4 kg) of lime, which is roughly
equivalent to 1.3 lb (0.6 kg) of
cement.

 

[Insane Reefer]

I honestly don't see how adding Sodium Bicarbonate is going to help reduce the pH. The chemical that is causing the pH spike is Calcium Hydroxide (Ca(OH)2). It might help strengthen, or set the cement quicker, but I don't think it will actually reduce the pH in the long run.

See my post above - added directly to the slurry is supposed to precipitate the lime and reduce pH a lot. Just need to figure out how to use the formula - too much precipitated out would ruin the rock, I'd think - not enough and nothing much to see...

My thoughts exactly. Maybe adding fly ash to the mixture will help strengthen what little cement is already in the mixture as well as reduce the Kure time.

MicroSilica is what the manufacturers of "Reef Balls" uses to drop pH.

Good point about baking at a lower temperature. it won't dry out the rock as fast. But, is the reason why commercial industries bakes the rock at a certain temperature based on how quickly water evaps, or a temperature point where Ca(OH)2 binds with Silicates?

More bonding happens at the low temps according to the literature, but steam has to be supplied by an outside mechanism - at 200F, there just isn't enough heat to make enough steam - my low temps bakes have all been complete failures. In non third world countries, high pressure and high temps are used. In third world countries, steam is pumped in to low heat cookers.

Silica/Silicates

Ok - this is one of those "Great Debates". Let us look at it like this: the cement we are using is just teaming with silicates, and these are soluble - these will leech into the system and be available. Silica sand, while it does contain silicates, does not contain very many soluble silicates (most silica sand is considered inert).
If you are going to worry about whether your sand contains silicates, you need to find another project - the cement is what folks should worry about, not the sand, lol. And the last 15 years have proven that the cement is nothing to worry about...

I have a similar experience. ......The Alk and Ca have both raised significantly...

Hmmm - I only have an elevated ALK - Calcium is still a bugger to raise and maintain.

 

[Rhodophyta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10246850#post10246850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Talk about painting the town red...

Blood was in the earliest forms of concrete. Many Roman ruins are ancient concrete.