The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10247199#post10247199 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
Blood was in the earliest forms of concrete. Many Roman ruins are ancient concrete.

One of the oldest Merlin/Arthur myths talks about Vortigern, and problems with a new keep he was trying to build - they almost sacrificed Merlin for just that purpose.

Egypt actually was the first civilization to make "cement". The romans perfected it, then lost it. The cement we have today sucks compared to the ancient stuff :sad2:
 
Mr Wilson, Travis. I'm going to go out on a limb here, lol.
Keep in mind my grasp of chemistry is pretty basic, but this is what I am thinking...
Travis said, "what we are trying to do is wash out the excess Ca(OH)2 in our DIY rocks."
And Mr Wilson said, "My question is whether this is truly necessary."

Fully cured (not kured) rock shouldn't have a lot of excess Ca(OH)2. I will put forth that the main problem is people trying to Kure the rock too soon, before the actual cure is even complete. I think too that pH is also a byproduct of the hydration phase - not the only cause, of course, but one factor. We can see a natural drop in pH without any soaking at all, if the rock is left in a damp, warm place - most rock drops by 2-4 points of pH over a 2 month span. So I will say that when the rock is dropped into water for the kure in under a month, we are prolonging the natural kure and keeping the pH "stable" in the high(er) pH range. Free o2 is needed to cure and that isn't available in water like it is in the atmosphere...

If we were not in such a hurry, pH wouldn't be a problem...
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10247199#post10247199 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
Blood was in the earliest forms of concrete. Many Roman ruins are ancient concrete.

The Romans had no shortage of blood.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10247337#post10247337 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Mr Wilson, Travis. I'm going to go out on a limb here, lol.
Keep in mind my grasp of chemistry is pretty basic, but this is what I am thinking...
Travis said, "what we are trying to do is wash out the excess Ca(OH)2 in our DIY rocks."
And Mr Wilson said, "My question is whether this is truly necessary."

Fully cured (not kured) rock shouldn't have a lot of excess Ca(OH)2. I will put forth that the main problem is people trying to Kure the rock too soon, before the actual cure is even complete. I think too that pH is also a byproduct of the hydration phase - not the only cause, of course, but one factor. We can see a natural drop in pH without any soaking at all, if the rock is left in a damp, warm place - most rock drops by 2-4 points of pH over a 2 month span. So I will say that when the rock is dropped into water for the kure in under a month, we are prolonging the natural kure and keeping the pH "stable" in the high(er) pH range. Free o2 is needed to cure and that isn't available in water like it is in the atmosphere...

If we were not in such a hurry, pH wouldn't be a problem...

I agree 100%.
 
Ok, I am back from vacation. I tested the water last night and the ph was 7. I emptied it and put fresh water in and tested it this morning and the ph was 7.5 which is about what our fresh water tests. Sooo. for at least this batch of DIY MMLR the baking soda seemed to Kure it faster. Here is the exact process the rock went through.
Water for 2 days with two changes per day. water for 3 days then one water change. Water for 4 more days. one day without any water. 4 days with water with 1 tbl spoon of baking soda per gallon.
I believe it needs more testing but might be worth doing more tests.
 
Your test only goes to 7.5? If that is the case, more than likely it is quite a bit above 7.5. And you say this has had 12 days of kure, but isn't this the rock you made this last sunday? That would make it just a week old today...
You need to find a real pH test. Before you state results, you actually need results...

I have that frag I'm doing the same thing with, and it is still showing 9.

It is showing some promise though, so more testing is in order. Most importantly long term spike tests.
 
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Hey Guys,
Since several of you haven't been able to find appropriately ranged test kits, I have an offer for everyone.

Litmus papers work the best for our purposes, and I have a ready, cheap supply locally. If you just can't find them, PM me an email address, with "TEST KIT" in the subject. I will send you a "Pay me with Paypal" request for 75 cents. When I get that and a mailing addy, I will send you 10 strips, and a color key (for which I will have to go to kinkos to get done). That should be enough to test a batch or two of rocks if you are sparing with them (cut them in half?). And no more guessing at pH :D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10251916#post10251916 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
ugh house so smelly and humid ><

IR I better get some banananananananananana's in the mail ;)

LOL! AZ :D Didn't cover the kitchen door, eh? Put a fan in the kitchen window to exhaust.

And thank you :)


OH! And close the oven door when you get the rock out, after a couple of hours, go clean the stove with a sponge - the moist bake will loosen any baked on stuff and you can just wipe it out. Your wife will love you for it - cleaning stoves can suck...
 
I wish my kitchen had a door :)

The only thing separating my kitchen from the house is a half wall. The vaulted ceiling also makes it tough to hang plastic :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10251831#post10251831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Your test only goes to 7.5? If that is the case, more than likely it is quite a bit above 7.5. And you say this has had 12 days of kure, but isn't this the rock you made this last sunday? That would make it just a week old today...
You need to find a real pH test. Before you state results, you actually need results...

I have that frag I'm doing the same thing with, and it is still showing 9.

It is showing some promise though, so more testing is in order. Most importantly long term spike tests.

What are you talking about? I used a PH meter that I calibrated about 2 weeks ago. The PH reading I posted ARE ACCURATE!!! Howeve I do have a saltwater master liquid test kit and will double test the water with it to put your mind at ease. I wonder if allowing the rock to have some time drying assisted in the Kure?
No this is not the rock I created last week. The rock I created last week has not even been properly soaked to remove the salt. I just got the rock removed from the tank and in the Rubbermaid tub today. Unfortunately one of the bulk heads was defective and split. I have seen this before but it was because I overtightned it and used Teflon tape. This time I made sure to use liquid Teflon by recommendation from the manufacture and did not over tighten it. I plan on taking it back tomorrow.
 
I've been following this thread for a while now, I have undergraduate education in chemistry (BA) and biology (BS). I am now working on a masters degree in biology. I also want to make some mmlr and just today went to HD today and via this thread, looked for "epoxy" by home depot. They have many kinds.....any thoughts as to what brand has been working????

I look forward to helping with any questions I can answer. And also am very excited the the great work you all are doing for this great hobby...
 
It's cool Brad; I mis-read your post and thought you were saying the test kit only went to 7.5 (cheap freshwater tests come to mind).
No worries :D
I'm sorry :)

And Welcome to the thread 'Dog :wave:
Tomorrow we will put your knowledge to use. I too have a buddy in college - he is going for genetics, and he has been helping me understand the harder stuff, which for me is most of it, lol.
He was over today, and needless to say, some very, very interesting things came of our talk today. Whether any of it pans out is another thing entirely, but we will see.
Anyway, glad to have you :)
 
Are we all ready?

Are we all ready?

Ok. My mind is odd, if you hadn't noticed. Sometimes some single thing someone says doesn't completely register at the moment, but at some point in the future, it may. If it does, it is usually riding the coat-tails of "idea" - sometimes these ideas pan out, sometimes they do not, but I wanted to share with you and see what the group consensus is.
'DOG - your first assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to verify and clarify this post, lol. As the person going for the degree, you get to be the fact checker, and keep me honest, and help me where I stumble. Ok?

I will list the particular postings that helped me hatch my idea's. I will leave out the names to protect anything needing protecting ;)
Again, I will say that I didn't come up with all of this on my own; my genetics buddy has helped me come up with the questions and then the answers...
Here goes.

you are using this rock as a filter and you think ti wont absorb calcium?
Unless we interrupt that process, the calcium in the rock is going to absorb the water of hydration if it can, something it does better in air and humidity.
Ion-rich saltwater will allow calcium to slowly leach out as room becomes available for it in bulk water. Providing the surface is etched (PH stabilized), you shouldn't have a significant PH increase with this slow leach.
I only have an elevated ALK - Calcium is still a bugger to raise and maintain.
calcium hydroxide, known as hydrated lime or quick lime in the construction trade, will speed the setting & curing time of cement.

Ok - this is a representation of regular Portland cement. Clinker is the powder, before water is added to start hydration. Cement is just that - the makeup of the hydrated cement - cement that has completed it's hydration.

Clinker Mass%

Tricalcium silicate 3CaO SiO2 45-75%
Dicalcium silicate 2CaO SiO2 7-32%
Tricalcium aluminate 3CaO Al2O3 0-13%
Tetracalcium aluminoferrite 4CaO Al2O3 Fe2O3 0-18%
Gypsum CaSO4 2-10%

Cement Mass%

Calcium oxide, CaO 61-67%
Silicon oxide, SiO2 19-23%
Aluminium oxide, Al2O3 2.5-6%
Ferric oxide, Fe2O3 0-6%
Sulfate 0-1%

My first question is, "WHERE IS ALL THE CALCIUM?" The clinker contains almost 100% calcium based materials, however the cement has a measly 67%? ***?
I think cement uses the missing calcium up in the chemical process of becoming cured cement. This is especially true based on the Calcium Chloride remark, which I googled, and holds up.
If this is the case, then calcium is a vital element. Now say that hydration is not complete, but the pH is 8-9, so we throw it in and use it.
We know it raises ALK, but that is ok. But the higher the ALK, the harder it is to get calcium into solution. Which is shown by my Biocube - I can't get CA up to 400, and have trouble maintaining 380ppm. Based on the chemistry I've read, if one is high, the other will become proportionately harder to raise. 'Dog, can you verify this for us?

Ok, so. What if the CA I am dosing is going to the cement matrix? Think about it from an atomic level. Calcium is being used to hydrate, but if that process is interrupted (KURING), and we flush away the "excess" Ca(OH)2, then hydration is paused until another source of calcium is supplied, i.e. Calcium Chloride from dosing/saltwater.
I think what is happening is the calcium is indeed being pulled from the water by the rock, and those calcium ions are fitting into the "sockets" that the "excess" we flushed away was supposed to fill...

Ok, if we accept this, then possibly I have a solution.
Calcium Chloride. Use it both in the rock, but also in the Kure The calcium from the chloride will be more readily available, and could fit into the ion sockets and "finish" the hydration. The added bonus would be that if the rock is pulling calcium out of the water to complete itself, this should stop that process dead.

And finally, I think that the acid "etching" (I call it a bath) doesn't actually stablize it, but instead flushed the stuff we are already flushing away with water - it is just happening faster with a weak acid bath...

I am doing a water change today, and will reserve the saltwater for an experiment.
Will Jiffy Rock that is one week old, and been acid bathed to a stable 9pH remain stable at 9pH when placed directly into saltwater? I will also run another test with Calcium Chloride in the kure water.

I will have to make a batch tonight to see - I have nothing in the works that I can use for this - bunch of bicarbonate tests going :(

So. Thoughts? Ideas? Flames?
 
Ok, and something more :D

Remember Disco Dancing Rock?
125181dancingrock.jpg

DDR was made to this recipe= 1:1:1/2:1/2 (cement:sand:OS:Perlite) - the sand was blaster sand, so not Ca based.
This rock was cast on the 24th/25th at midnight, baked at 9pm on the following day. I photographed it as soon as it was cool enough to handle and posted my pic's.

I skipped the acid bath, and instead soaked it for 3 days in sodium bicarbonate, a couple of tablespoons to a gallon of water, changed each day. Then, we got lucky, and had 3 days of good rain - I set it out in the rain for those 3 days.
I brought it in yesterday afternoon and started a test soak.
I just tested pH and it is sitting at 8pH!!!

Today the rock turns 7 days old...
 
I don’t think that cement uses calcium to cure, I think that calcium uses hydrogen atoms from the water to cure.

Portland, gypsum, and limestone, common cement ingrediants are calcium based.

Portland cement isn’t one ingredient but many and when listed as Portland it hides the fact that it is 2/3 calcium. From Wikipedia, “"Portland cement clinker is a hydraulic material which shall consist of at least two-thirds by mass of calcium silicates (3CaO.SiO2 and 2CaO.SiO2), the remainder consisting of aluminium- and iron-containing clinker phases and other compounds. The ratio of CaO to SiO2 shall not be less than 2.0.”

I have also heard of water having too much calcium, and the calcium precipitates out solution and “rains” down as a solid. Cloudy water is a result of this.

EDITED - I realized I got my Alk and pH confused on this issue and deleted that portion. Sorry Insane! I thought I had an answer in there, but I guess not.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10258503#post10258503 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michaelalan
I don’t think that cement uses calcium to cure, I think that calcium uses hydrogen atoms from the water to cure.

Read up and look at the table - I covered that - what I'm saying is I think the missing calcium is used up in the hydration process - not that the hydration is caused by calcium. Hydration starts when water is mixed with the clinker. I'm not sure what I mean exactly by "used up", but I would think that the molecules are split and the calcium is no longer calcium - but this is just a guess and my understanding of chemistry is basic at best.

And water slows the curing process - O2 is needed to hydrate. Hydrogen has nothing really to do with the process. If it were, man, peroxide might become our friend.

But even if this part is not completely right, or totally incorrect, I still think there is something with the rock "taking" our calcium. I've added over half of a 4oz bottle of Kent CA in the last 3 months and have nothing to show for it, lol. I have a capacity of 6.25 gallons...
And it is fairly sound, science-wise.

I think a series of tests would be in order. Maybe with fresh rock and a control too. Super saturate RO with Calcium Chloride - this is pretty easy to do - add Calcium Chloride until it starts to precipitate out again, heat water to boiling and add even more until that starts to fall out.
Divide solution into two containers. One gets a rock, one does not. Every 10 minutes take a CA reading. (Man, a digi-pen would be great for this), and chart the titration curve. That should tell us once and for all if the rock is removing CA from the water, agreed?

And Michealalan, you said your tests on the Hypersorb failed? Did you try a greater concentration of salt? Did you try to get it to breakdown before adding it, just to see how it did it?
Just curious...
 
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