The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10286603#post10286603 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pito
Has any one used this stuff to bond there DIY rocks?
http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/ConcreteBondingAdhesivePro.asp

I've used it many times. It's basically white glue. It looks like white glue, it smells like white glue, and the instructions state that it can be used as...you guessed it, white glue.

The problem with white glue, is it's water soluble. I used it a few times to prime glass for cement bonding, but it dissolves as soon as you fill the tank. It does however, help bond rock together when mixed into cement. Yellow carpenters glue would work better, as it's water resistant.

Add some water and borax to the white glue and you have your own homemade slime (polymer).

 

[Insane Reefer]

Mr Wilson, I have a quick question for you - actually, two. You talk about acid etching to stabilize pH. How does that work? Also, I've been doing "acid baths" - the same thing in theory. What is a good length of time for acid etching or bathing? I've been doing anything from 3 day to 5 days, but am wondering if that is longer then is needed, or not long enough? Basically, looking for the shortest effective time-frame...

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10284597#post10284597 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
If the perlite pans out I think we have a really good substitute/alternative for the rock salt (one less step to get the rock ready for use).

I was thinking it would replace crushed coral, and because of the way cement forms up around it, salt just wouldn't be neccessary anymore, except for maybe adding surface texture or large voids/caves with salt packs/piles/chunks...

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10290463#post10290463 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Mr Wilson, I have a quick question for you - actually, two. You talk about acid etching to stabilize pH. How does that work? Also, I've been doing "acid baths" - the same thing in theory. What is a good length of time for acid etching or bathing? I've been doing anything from 3 day to 5 days, but am wondering if that is longer then is needed, or not long enough? Basically, looking for the shortest effective time-frame...

I'm not entirely sure how the chemical reaction works. Cement is alkali with a high PH, while acid is, as the name would suggest, acidic with a low PH. Somehow the process of adding Acid to the surface of concrete renders a slightly lower PH to the concrete even after rinsing.

One function of etching is to remove loose material, but physical removal is still required. The second function is to lower the PH, particularly in the application of coatings. I believe acid opens the pores of concrete as Co2 escapes, but this isn't my field of expertise.

Hydrochloric acid combines with carbonates (sodium bicarbonate and sodium carbonate) to form sodium chloride (table salt), Co2, and water. The hydraulic process cement goes through is driven by these same chemical agents.

I'll ask a civil engineer friend of mine to elaborate. It'll give him a chance to use the knowledge that he has likely forgotten. With all of the views this thread has had, I'm surprised we haven't drawn out a concrete expert lurking among us.

I painted a concrete floor years ago, and the paint bubbled up. The chemist at the paint company surmised that I didn't rinse the acid well enough and Co2 slowly bubbled through the paint.

Another chemist claimed that my warehouse ceiling was oxidized from frequent use of hydrochloric (muriatic) acid. Apparently it readily binds to metals in it's vapour form.

The construction industry adds acid to fresh concrete in open air. I just watched a guy the other day with a weed sprayer full of acid, spraying a new sidewalk. The sidewalk went from grey to white as he sprayed. I'm not sure if they do this to remove loose material, or if somehow the process hardens the surface or helps with drainage.

An acid bath may not be as effective as spraying it "dry", as it may not allow for the same reactions experienced in atmospheric air.

I didn't answer your question, but I think I adequately proved that I don't know the answer.

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10290701#post10290701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
I didn't answer your question, but I think I adequately proved that I don't know the answer.

ROTFLMAO!!!
No Worries - you basically replied with what I was thinking, but thought I'd ask someone who might know more.

What I am doing with the weak vinegar solution has given me good results, but I wonder if they could be better? Ask your buddy what he knows, if you would. It might give us something new to hash over.

 

[mr.wilson]

Muriatic acid will work better than vinegar.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Muriatic has a lot of impurities in it. Vinegar is reef safe.

 

[Aqua Keepers]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10286603#post10286603 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pito
Has any one used this stuff to bond there DIY rocks?
http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/ConcreteBondingAdhesivePro.asp

^

 

[Azazael13]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10287337#post10287337 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
I've used it many times. It's basically white glue. It looks like white glue, it smells like white glue, and the instructions state that it can be used as...you guessed it, white glue.

The problem with white glue, is it's water soluble. I used it a few times to prime glass for cement bonding, but it dissolves as soon as you fill the tank. It does however, help bond rock together when mixed into cement. Yellow carpenters glue would work better, as it's water resistant.

Add some water and borax to the white glue and you have your own homemade slime (polymer).

^^

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10292023#post10292023 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Muriatic has a lot of impurities in it. Vinegar is reef safe.

Hydrochloric acid is used for it's chemical composition as well as its' acidic nature. You won't get salt, water or Co2 from vinegar.

If you aren't satisfied with muriatic, then use hydrochloric grade. It's still dirt cheap without the impurities.

 

[Insane Reefer]

I had thought possibly to use HCL at one point, but am hesitant to throw it down the drain when it is used. I've used muriatic and probably will do so again, but simply to clean the faces of certain pieces I have done. For commercial rock I want to be able to say that I didn't cut corners or used inferior materials, that to the best of my ability, I used materials known to be safe in the aquarium.
I'll have to check at the local masonry supply - I've never noticed HCL at the big box stores, and online ordering carries a $25US "hazardous materials" charge :sad2:
Finding it might be the limiting factor...

 

[wooden_reefer]

Hello:

I am making live rock

I have bags of crushed coral and also a bag of crushed Oyster shell.

Would you take me apart of appearance what the differences are. What is the higher phosphate content of crushed oyster shell. What could be the source of the phosphrous in crushed oyster shell?

I went to Home Depot and Lowes, they sell Portand cement type II-V, not type I-II, can I use type II-V? What is the difference?

Thanks so much

 

[davepadilla]

Mr.Wilson: The reason they spray concrete like driveways and such is to aid in the curing process.

 

[Azazael13]

ok batch #2 is done, I am going to do a partial water change soon and use the old water in a 10 gallon I have setup in my garage to put the batch in, this will hopefully help the algae right? Do I need a filter running or just an air stone on the rocks?

 

[spike78]

Insane Reefer,

Are you still baking your rocks? I've let my rocks sit now for 48 hours and am trying 2 different baking techniques.

In technique one, I took the rocks right from the mold box to the BBQ set on high for 3 hours. After that I let it soak for 2 hours.

In technique two, I took the rock from the molding box and went into a soak for 2 hours to pull out as much salt as I could. From there I went into the BBQ for 3 hours.

Right now it seems like technique 2 is working best as technique 1 rocks seem a little brittle. If you are still baking your rocks, what process are you using?

I'm using the following recipie: 1.5 parts cement:1 part oyster shell:3 parts salt.

Thanks,

Steve

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10293814#post10293814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
ok batch #2 is done, I am going to do a partial water change soon and use the old water in a 10 gallon I have setup in my garage to put the batch in, this will hopefully help the algae right? Do I need a filter running or just an air stone on the rocks?

Which rock is this Az? Jiffy Rock or Traditional?
Just fishing for an update on the Jiffy Rock you made

Either way, what you plan sounds fine - just keep the lighting low for a while and it seems to help. Air is enough.

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10294260#post10294260 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spike78
Insane Reefer,

Are you still baking your rocks?

Yes, I am - it seems to work, and I usually get rock that is pH 9 or less in 1 week to 10 days.

Right now it seems like technique 2 is working best as technique 1 rocks seem a little brittle. If you are still baking your rocks, what process are you using?

Technique two seems to be working for you better because it did - you are saturating the rock with moisture before baking it - moisture is vital to the hydration process. The other rock dried out too quickly as the heat just sucked it out. Try adding a tin can or 2 of really hot water next time, and leave the salt in the rock until after the bake. Also close all the vents on your BBQ.

I get the best results the sooner I bake - between 18 and 24 hours after casting, usually. I keep my temp at around 450°F, and keep a pan of water in with it to provide moisture, I also bake them for 4-6 hours, depending on the size of the rocks. The vinegar bath should follow the salt release. For the bath, try 3 days in 2 cups of vinegar to each gallon of water - you just need to cover the rocks with the solution. Rinse really well after they have sat, and refill the bin and allow to sit over-night, then drain. I then finish out the kure, a week or so with a couple of water changes.
I am going to try one rock, right after the acid bath, to see what it does to a test tank, just for curiosities sake.

 

[spike78]

IR,

I just checked my technique 2 rocks again now. It's like 3 hours after bake. Those rocks are strong as heck. The ones I baked first are nowhere close.

I baked the rocks in an old gas BBQ I had running it full blast. I recon I'm running about 450 maybe 500. I put a steel bowl of water in there for moisture.

Do you think it's worth keeping my technique 1 rocks? I don't want to put too much work into them if they are just going to end up failing. Do you think the backing permanently damaged the cure? These rocks are cheap so maybe it's worth just tossing them.


Thanks,

Steve

 

[Neptune777]

I made a ton of rock yesterday using the old school recipe. I'm not going to bake them but rather let them air cure for a month or so before soaking. Do you mist or spray the rocks periodically during this air cure to aid in the curing process or do you just let them dry out?

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10294865#post10294865 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spike78

Do you think it's worth keeping my technique 1 rocks?

Almost everyone ends up with a few rocks that don't turn out. I really can't tell without seeing them, but if you feel they are too brittle, I wouldn't use them. If waste bothers you, break these up and reuse the rubble in the next few batches of rock you make.